Penn Quakers - 2024 Lineup

[flyingcement]

@Voice of the Quakers @Quaker118, calling for expert advice on how to forecast Penn's lineup next year.

125: Ryan Miller, the incumbent, seemingly unlikely to be challenged for the starting spot

133: Michael Colaiocco's senior season and he seems like the obvious choice.  But also worth noting that the capable Evan Mougalian is waiting in the wings

141: CJ Composto back after taking last season off and was an All-American in 2022.  

149: I'm thinking Kaya Sement, but not quit sure.

157: Louis Colaiocco?

165: Revano

174: Incontrera

184: Connor Strong, Max Hale, or Cole Urbas back down?

197: Probably Martin Cosgrove or Cole Urbas

285: Matt Cruise or Martin Cosgrove

 

thanks for your thoughts fellas

[nhs67]

I worry at this point if Urbas drops back to 184 we will see a Darmstadt situation where it is just too light for his body frame to support anymore.

[Elevator]

Good summary and good questions - I think there is a lot to be sorted in the middle.  I do note that Cruise and Hale are competing this weekend (I think a read that somewhere), so these guys may be in the plan?  Not really sure where Cosgrove is in terms of weight or challenge to Urbas. He had some matches in high school at 215, but not sure he weighed that much then or has the size for 285.

I wonder if Revano can go down to 157 or wants to?  Hauserman may be in the mix at 149 too?  Troczynski at 149 or 157? Spencer possible for 157 or 165?  There are a lot of young guys and you never know who might emerge.

[Indiana-Hawk-Wrestling-Fan]

Don’t forget about Jude Swisher at 149! 
Also Andrew Troczynski will be at 149 or 157, both studs!  I believe those 2 will be at 149/157

[Voice of the Quakers]

As I mentioned in a previous thread, I'm not as close to the team as I once was. (Swim meets get in the way.) But, since you asked:

1) There is still a significant gap between M. Colaiocco and Mougalian.

2) I agree with Indiana-Hawk-Wrestling-Fan - I would expect newcomers to man both 149 and 157 unless CJ moves up.
(No inside knowledge, but CJ is wrestling 65 KG this weekend at the US Open.) 

3) No reason why Hale won't be the starter next year. He was 1st team All-Ivy, and his progress this year was a bright spot.

4) Athleticism is already an issue with Urbas and would only be exacerbated at 184. The Urbas-Cosgrove question at 197 will be an interesting one.

[TwoPointsTakeDown84]

How long does Penn stick with the current HC? Is he in the hot seat in '23-'24? What needs to happen to buy him more time? Or is it even an issue? 

Who would be a good fit to step in to lead the Quakers, next?

[Voice of the Quakers]

59 minutes ago, TwoPointsTakeDown84 said:

How long does Penn stick with the current HC? Is he in the hot seat in '23-'24? What needs to happen to buy him more time? Or is it even an issue? 

Who would be a good fit to step in to lead the Quakers, next?

This is a joke, right?

[Voice of the Quakers]

Of note:
 

 

Pennsylvania RTC

 

@pennsylvaniartc

 

 

Hale wins 5-5 on criteria to advance to the quarterfinals at 86kg! #USOpen2023

 

 

4:17 PM · Apr 27, 2023

·

 

[Voice of the Quakers]

 

 

Pennsylvania RTC

 

@pennsylvaniartc

 

 

Hale loses 7-2 to Zahid Valencia. He will move on to the consolations. #USOpen2023

[D3 for LU]

I would say since his return, Roger Reina has produced positive results in a short amount of time. He has pretty good team balance to produce pretty decent dual results.

What he needs is a couple of can't miss head bangers that will produce AA results that will start the success cycle that brings in a steady stream of blue chippers coming towards Philly.

D3 

[Quaker118]

I wondered why Urbas  took a step back this year. Talking to someone close to the program Urbas grew around 4" in the last year and you could see on his feet he didn't adjust to the change. I hope it's Cosgrove at 197 and the new kids on the block at 149/157. I'd like to see Revano at 157. Not sure he'd make the team so I'm told and not sure who would go 165. Wish Urbas could put on significant weight and go hwt. We will struggle there. 

[Elevator]

44 minutes ago, Quaker118 said:

I wondered why Urbas  took a step back this year. Talking to someone close to the program Urbas grew around 4" in the last year and you could see on his feet he didn't adjust to the change. I hope it's Cosgrove at 197 and the new kids on the block at 149/157. I'd like to see Revano at 157. Not sure he'd make the team so I'm told and not sure who would go 165. Wish Urbas could put on significant weight and go hwt. We will struggle there. 

I think Urbas did get even tougher on top and seemed to develop a little better leg attack.   But, when competing against top talent, he had some struggles.  I admire how much he has accomplished even if it is short of his goals.  Its a tough sport.

[TwoPointsTakeDown84]

16 hours ago, Voice of the Quakers said:

This is a joke, right?

Considering the circumstances that he inherited, why are these not serious questions? A long absence from coaching, brought in to right a ship that, arguably, was heading in a better direction than it currently is. He's been there for an entire recruiting cycle(more than the last guy had), without much to show for it as far as hardware. A few highly regarded recruits have come and gone, showing little improvement or in some case outright regression.

How else can you frame it other then they would rather have the older alums happy and giving, with this HC then to risk stirring the pot for a suitable replacement.

If you're looking at it critically, you've seen the same things. More qualifiers, sure. With average or below average performances. From the recruits that have been brought in, has there been one AA? 

[nhs67]

7 minutes ago, TwoPointsTakeDown84 said:

Considering the circumstances that he inherited, why are these not serious questions? A long absence from coaching, brought in to right a ship that, arguably, was heading in a better direction than it currently is. He's been there for an entire recruiting cycle(more than the last guy had), without much to show for it as far as hardware. A few highly regarded recruits have come and gone, showing little improvement or in some case outright regression.

How else can you frame it other then they would rather have the older alums happy and giving, with this HC then to risk stirring the pot for a suitable replacement.

If you're looking at it critically, you've seen the same things. More qualifiers, sure. With average or below average performances. From the recruits that have been brought in, has there been one AA? 

There are levels to this.  Penn has the PRTC now and that is making headway at the highest level of wrestling.  An institution like Penn isn't as worried about results as they are culture, and what they have there is Top Tier.

Anyone who can't objectively see or accept that they are never going to be Cornell year-in, year-out is running with a level of toxic energy that the Penn program doesn't need around them.

[Elevator]

1 hour ago, TwoPointsTakeDown84 said:

Considering the circumstances that he inherited, why are these not serious questions? A long absence from coaching, brought in to right a ship that, arguably, was heading in a better direction than it currently is. He's been there for an entire recruiting cycle(more than the last guy had), without much to show for it as far as hardware. A few highly regarded recruits have come and gone, showing little improvement or in some case outright regression.

How else can you frame it other then they would rather have the older alums happy and giving, with this HC then to risk stirring the pot for a suitable replacement.

If you're looking at it critically, you've seen the same things. More qualifiers, sure. With average or below average performances. From the recruits that have been brought in, has there been one AA? 

#1 - far better now than the circumstances inheritted.  The PRTC has been built and ideally will provide long term institutional support to Penn and Drexel programs and eccosystem (including the Beat the Streets).   Penn admin and alumni properly love and value this.  Does any other program do as much for the community?  

#2 - it is going in a very good direction (despite a down year in recruiting and actual 2023 NCAA AA results).   Strong programs can have a disappointing NCAA tourney.

#3 - for every recruit that underperformed, there are more that developed and overachieved expectations.   Example: on the mat today, is Senior Level Freestyle AA Max Hale who had a breakout year.   There is no development problem at Penn - to the contrary.

#4 - CJ Composto was an NCAA AA in '22, sat out this year and served Beat the Streets, has three more years.  There are several others who may achieve AA.  

Edited April 28, 2023 by Elevator

[TwoPointsTakeDown84]

47 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

There are levels to this.  Penn has the PRTC now and that is making headway at the highest level of wrestling.  An institution like Penn isn't as worried about results as they are culture, and what they have there is Top Tier.

Anyone who can't objectively see or accept that they are never going to be Cornell year-in, year-out is running with a level of toxic energy that the Penn program doesn't need around them.

No one mentioned Cornell. Although, it'll be interesting to see how they do in the next 3-5 years without Koll. 

I basically compared the current HC to the previous. If RR wasn't who he is he would've been shown the door by now. 

From what I've gleaned, Princeton is who Penn is trying to catch and has been the last 10 years. Quakers seem to be falling farther behind. The PRTC seems to be doing little to bridge the gap other than diverting donor funds away from the team budget. 

[BigRedFan]

6 minutes ago, TwoPointsTakeDown84 said:

No one mentioned Cornell. Although, it'll be interesting to see how they do in the next 3-5 years without Koll. 

I basically compared the current HC to the previous. If RR wasn't who he is he would've been shown the door by now. 

From what I've gleaned, Princeton is who Penn is trying to catch and has been the last 10 years. Quakers seem to be falling farther behind. The PRTC seems to be doing little to bridge the gap other than diverting donor funds away from the team budget. 

Princeton?  The team that finished seventh at this years EIWA tournament, and 40 points behind Penn?  Who are losing their only real stars (Glory and Monday)?

At least Penn has decent guys at nearly all weights.

[D3 for LU]

27 minutes ago, BigRedFan said:

Princeton?  The team that finished seventh at this years EIWA tournament, and 40 points behind Penn?  Who are losing their only real stars (Glory and Monday)?

At least Penn has decent guys at nearly all weights.

As I said previously, Penn has a balanced dual team... they need some "can't miss" stud(s) to go further.

D3

[TwoPointsTakeDown84]

24 minutes ago, Elevator said:

#1 - far better now than the circumstances inheritted.  The PRTC has been built and ideally will provide long term institutional support to Penn and Drexel programs and eccosystem (including the Beat the Streets).   Penn admin and alumni properly love and value this.  Does any other program do as much for the community?  

#2 - it is going in a very good direction (despite a down year in recruiting and actual 2023 NCAA AA results).   Strong programs can have a disappointing NCAA tourney.

#3 - for every recruit that underperformed, there are more that developed and overachieved expectations.   Example: on the mat today, is Senior Level Freestyle AA Max Hale who had a breakout year.   There is no development problem at Penn - to the contrary.

#4 - CJ Composto was an NCAA AA in '22, sat out this year and served Beat the Streets, has three more years.  There are several others who may achieve AA.  

What were the circumstances they inherited? The PRTC was built with RP and others representing it quite well. Did Penn admin and alums not love and value the program before? They do do a lot for the community.

Several disappointing NCAA tournaments. Granted covid robbed the Ivies of two but that is not anyone's fault. No down year of recruiting, still getting notable recruits and more of them(table) than in previous years, which should tell you something. What is and has been done with the talent? Lets not focus on the word talent, just the numbers, they have a bigger team overall. More members, where is the considerable improvement? Not as much as would be expected in, even other Ivies. Now you have a young upstart in Brown to contend with. 

Overachieved expectations: great example. Glad for him. Does that translate to college wrestling? Will it? Hasn't yet. Might not. And you're overlooking the large examples of things going the other way. I understand you want to see them moving in the right direction. I wish they, actually, were doing that. 

CJ, great job. That looked like a tough weight class. Hope he can do it again and improve on his performance. He beat the guy who is now a returning national champ. The bar is set high. 

Year	Roster	Qualfiers	team score	place	pts/qual
14	29	4	10	36	2.5
15	25	5	6.5	38	1.3
16	27	4	23.5	20	5.875
17	27	5	8	37	1.6
18	29	4	5	40	1.25
19	35	2	3.5	45	1.75
20	38	No NCAA tourney
21	30	Probably took the year off to save eligibility
22	45	9	15.5	27	1.722222
23	46	8	9.5	32	1.1875

They've had more time, more support(apparently), a (significantly)bigger roster, arguably better and more time recruiting and little if anything to show for it. Except more qualifiers scoring as many or fewer points at the NCAA tournament. If they're heading in 'a very good direction', in your opinion. What would it look like if they were headed in the bad direction? 

 

[Formally140]

4 hours ago, Elevator said:

#1 - far better now than the circumstances inheritted.  The PRTC has been built and ideally will provide long term institutional support to Penn and Drexel programs and eccosystem (including the Beat the Streets).   Penn admin and alumni properly love and value this.  Does any other program do as much for the community?  

#2 - it is going in a very good direction (despite a down year in recruiting and actual 2023 NCAA AA results).   Strong programs can have a disappointing NCAA tourney.

#3 - for every recruit that underperformed, there are more that developed and overachieved expectations.   Example: on the mat today, is Senior Level Freestyle AA Max Hale who had a breakout year.   There is no development problem at Penn - to the contrary.

#4 - CJ Composto was an NCAA AA in '22, sat out this year and served Beat the Streets, has three more years.  There are several others who may achieve AA.  

This.

one of the thing’s quietly killing the sport is the focus on JUST results in the short term and no focus on sustainability 

[Quaker118]

I wondered why Urbas  took a step back this year. Talking to someone close to the program Urbas grew around 4" in the last year and you could see on his feet he didn't adjust to the change. I hope it's Cosgrove at 197 and the new kids on the block at 149/157. I'd like to see Revano at 157. Not sure he'd make the team so I'm told and not sure who would go 165. Wish Urbas could put on significant weight and go hwt. We will struggle there. 

[Elevator]

1 hour ago, Quaker118 said:

I wondered why Urbas  took a step back this year. Talking to someone close to the program Urbas grew around 4" in the last year and you could see on his feet he didn't adjust to the change. I hope it's Cosgrove at 197 and the new kids on the block at 149/157. I'd like to see Revano at 157. Not sure he'd make the team so I'm told and not sure who would go 165. Wish Urbas could put on significant weight and go hwt. We will struggle there. 

You can say that again.

[Elevator]

I do not think anyone is going to convince TwoPointsTakeDown84 (who joined yesterday perhaps for purposes of making this point) to reconsider the posted critical views.  I do not find them remotely persuasive.  

There are of coruse many alumni, family, and supporters and probably a variety of views on the state or the program and its leadership.  I doubt that there are many that are deeply unsatisfied and expect most are very pleased and optimistic.  Similarly, my sense without direct knowledge is that this is a model program that is thriving from the perspective of the Penn administration and AD's office.  Being near the top of the Ivy and EIWA wrestling, spliting the dual 5/5 with Cornell at Cornell (a top ten team w two NCAA champs competitive for olympic spots), two record years of NCAA qualifiers (17 in two years) and a lot of returning qualifiers and exciting recruits/underclassmen, and a returning AA with three years left - this is considered proof of leadership, a valued culture, and strong program.  While Princeton has had their own success (hats off to them), I do not think Penn supporters think Princeton overall is ahead of Penn.  Feels like a health rivalry.  Also glad that Columbia and Brown have some good recruits and signs of strength.  Not sure Ivy wrestling has ever been this strong.

[TwoPointsTakeDown84]

Trying to impugn my credibility doesn't bolster your argument. It only leads me to believe you're trying to convince yourself rather than put forth a competing idea. I gave numbers. Not opinion. With more resources, they should be expected to do more. They haven't. There should be accountability or transparency as to why. Here's where the bias comes in, they are comfortable with their situation. That's fine. Its not a good situation by any means but they feel its acceptable at this time for these results. Alums are happy, donors are happy. Fine. As a third party observer, it stinks. 

Like the situation in Norman. It looks as though the admins(at Penn) bungled things from the jump. Making it much harder for anyone to take over and succeed. Which seems like what wound up happening. They picked a comfortable band aid for everyone to rally around while they get their house in order. Threw a bunch of money at it, which they have plenty of and have experience using it as a crutch. But is it sustainable? No. And that is the point. When someone else takes over, and someone will need to, because RR is not going to be able to do this forever(or much longer, even) it will crash! Because they've built it around one man. Just think of what happened the last time he left. ZJ jumped ship shortly after taking over. Then RE took over with a good amount of success. Not sure of how or why he left or was asked to leave. AT was given the reigns as an outsider with no previous ties to Penn. MV sticks around for one year before becoming an admin. Things chug for three years then RR takes over again after an 'exhaustive' search for a new coach. Just smells fishy. 

Granted, you probably have some sunk cost into the program. You're praying that it works out so you don't have to alter your perceptions in any way whatsoever. But as someone invested in the program, why aren't you asking those questions? This doesn't seem like a process I would want to have associated with a team that I'm cheering for. The student-athletes get jerked around having 3 HC's in 5 years. How is that fair? Now they're throwing a ton of resources at the old guy in the hopes of righting the ship? Why didn't they do that to the previous HC's? They might have some good kids coming in, good for them. I hope they do well. Get a great education and learn to wrestle at the same time. I'm not going to be cheering against them, they just haven't won my support with the way they've handled themselves. To me that should be off-putting, because if all you care about is your clan for support then your vision is too narrow and they probably lost some of that support with the moves they've made. 

[nhs67]

On 4/28/2023 at 6:47 PM, Elevator said:

I do not think anyone is going to convince TwoPointsTakeDown84 (who joined yesterday perhaps for purposes of making this point) to reconsider the posted critical views.  I do not find them remotely persuasive.  

There are of coruse many alumni, family, and supporters and probably a variety of views on the state or the program and its leadership.  I doubt that there are many that are deeply unsatisfied and expect most are very pleased and optimistic.  Similarly, my sense without direct knowledge is that this is a model program that is thriving from the perspective of the Penn administration and AD's office.  Being near the top of the Ivy and EIWA wrestling, spliting the dual 5/5 with Cornell at Cornell (a top ten team w two NCAA champs competitive for olympic spots), two record years of NCAA qualifiers (17 in two years) and a lot of returning qualifiers and exciting recruits/underclassmen, and a returning AA with three years left - this is considered proof of leadership, a valued culture, and strong program.  While Princeton has had their own success (hats off to them), I do not think Penn supporters think Princeton overall is ahead of Penn.  Feels like a health rivalry.  Also glad that Columbia and Brown have some good recruits and signs of strength.  Not sure Ivy wrestling has ever been this strong.

Trying to impugn @TwoPointsTakeDown84's credibility doesn't bolster your argument.