Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 Inspired by @Jamie_Taco on this Taco Tuesday (guess what I am having for dinner tonight?) I thought I would take a look at the 3xers in the WrestleStat era (2014 - present). That list includes J'Den Cox, Kyle Snyder, Zain Retherford, Jason Nolf, Bo Nickal, and Spencer Lee. Sorry Alex Dieringer. You had the misfortune of starting your college career one year before Greg Anderson started his wrestling statistical career. Editor's Note: Can I get an amen for WrestleStat? What an invaluable resource. Because I have to number everything to death, let's start with the numbers. I tried to use every part of the WrestleStat for this, partly because I could and partly because everyone has a favorite thing they like to argue for when arguing for their man. For some it is about counting stats, for others it is about rates, or dominance, or international achievements, or the eye test. Wins They say the greatest ability is availability. You have to be in it to win it. And a bunch of other clichés. But it is hard to argue with Zain Retherford's 123 wins (and 92 in a row). That said you can through a hat around four of the six with Jason Nolf at 115, and J'Den Cox / Bo Nickal at 120. J'Den Cox's 5 loses probably knocks him down a peg, but the difference is pretty small. Pinfalls (you heard me, @ionel) While Spencer Lee has a reputation for pinning, and pinning fast, the clear leader here is Jason Nolf. Not only does he have the most pinfalls, he has the highest percentage of pinfalls, with a whopping 51% of his matches ending with someone (not him) looking at the lights. Sure he took a minute longer on average than Spencer Lee, but I do not think that is the true headline stat here. I also think you have to ding Spencer for getting pinned twice whereas none of the other five suffered a similar fate. NCAA Points Again with Jason Nolf. Racking up 98 tournament points is pretty insane. Someone with the bonus point chops of Bo "HE HAS THE CHIN" Nickal could not keep pace. What hope does anyone else have? Hardware In footie, they say it is all about the hardware. How many trophies did you win? That is all that matters. Well, they each won three individual titles, so...push. But, Zain Retherford and Spencer Lee say they are having a hard time reading this post because all of the glare coming off of their two Hodge Trophies each. Bo Nickal is looking sheepishly at Jason Nolf wondering how his teammate has none. Hardware - part 2 J'Den Cox is laughing at me at this point. Hey, dummy, ever heard of the Olympics? Even if I had a Hodge it would just be a medal stand for my Olympic bronze. Hardware - part 3 Kyle Snyder says hold my beer. Editors Other Note: I am reminded of a cleaned up version of a joke I heard. Three guys enter a wrestling tournament. One wins his weight by coming from behind in every match to pinfall his opponent. One wins his weight by never giving up a single point, escape or otherwise. One wins his weight by TFing every opponent as he plays with his food. Who is the most outstanding wrestler? The one with the Olympic gold medal, of course. Tangible Intangibles Gentlemen, state your case. Spencer Lee - "I have negative one healthy knees." Kyle Snyder - "I effectively wrestled up a weight, give me a break with these soulless stats." J'Den Cox - "There was a good chance I would be dehydrated every match and slip in a pool of my own making." Bo Nickal - "I've got your Carver Curse right here." Jason Nolf - "I have to live every day with the shame of Kyle Todrank dancing on me. KYLE. TODRANK." Another way to look at things is to rank them against each other, a normalization of sorts. Summing things up this way assumes that all of this stuff matters (and only this stuff), and all of it matters equally. I think it is fair to say neither of those are accurate statements. So who ya got? For my money I rank them as follows: Kyle Snyder, Zain Retherford, Bo Nolf, Jason Nickal, J'Den Cox, Spencer Lee. 4 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgaveMaria Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 pinfall? The term is PIN or Fall, with Technical Fall being for those not tough enough to get it done the right way. Pinfall is used by dipshiz, idiots and fools. ” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Cinnabon Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 No way is Spencer Lee the 6th best 3 timer...don't care what your numbers say. He has to be the best 3xer because he was just so damn dominant on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Pinfalls (you heard me, @ionel) Oh my ... here we go again. Earl McCready was undefeated 3x NC with a 88% pin rate. You'd think any of these blokes performing mythical pinfalls would have at least double that rate. BTW: related to a previous thread, McCready wrestled & played football in college. He probably had some pinplant stats on the gridiron that I am unaware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VakAttack Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 Why are you trying to bait me into an internet brawl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Stankowski Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 Dieringer by far, I do not wrestlestat to tell me that. Was he an AWA? Another Wisconsin miss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 40 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said: pinfall? The term is PIN or Fall, with Technical Fall being for those not tough enough to get it done the right way. Pinfall is used by dipshiz, idiots and fools. dipshiz, idiots, fools and know nothings. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 34 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said: No way is Spencer Lee the 6th best 3 timer...don't care what your numbers say. He has to be the best 3xer because he was just so damn dominant on top. meh. someone who is dominant on top gets a lot of pinfalls and tech falls. Jason Nolf has more. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, VakAttack said: Why are you trying to bait me into an internet brawl? fight, fight, fight. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98lberEating2Lunches Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) @Wrestleknownothing If we assume the consensus Pinfall > TF > MD, then for color coding gradient purposes of TF %s, would it be better to take that % as one of total matches that did not end in a Pinfall? Likewise, would it be better to take the % of MDs of all matches that did not end in either a Pinfall or TF? Edited April 25, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, Ivan Stankowski said: Dieringer by far, I do not wrestlestat to tell me that. Was he an AWA? Another Wisconsin miss Oh that I could get his freshman stats. Wrestlingstats comes up one year short and WrestleStat starts one year too late. Any chance you have those or know where I can find them? Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said: @Wrestleknownothing If we assume Fall > TF > MD, then for color coding gradient purposes of TF %s, would it be better to take that % as one of total matches that did not end in a fall? Likewise, would it be better to take the % of MDs of all matches that did not end in either a Fall or TF? interesting 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchapman Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) I also think you have to ding Spencer for getting pinned twice whereas none of the other five suffered a similar fate. Snyder got pinned in the 2015 NCAA Finals. Edited April 25, 2023 by jchapman 1 Craig Henning got screwed in the 2007 NCAA Finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98lberEating2Lunches Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: interesting (I edited to use Pinfall to honor your position.) I think % done that way could eliminate the need to look at some of the rows. It would also avoid the risk of double-valuing an evaluation criteria, given total matches is already accounted for. I probably would create explicit weightings for each criteria along with some scoring method. I think it's clear yours might be international accolades. Edited April 25, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 1 minute ago, jchapman said: I also think you have to ding Spencer for getting pinned twice whereas none of the other five suffered a similar fate*. Snyder got pinned in the 2015 NCAA Finals. *except for that time Captain America lost his mighty shield. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Oh that I could get his freshman stats. Wrestlingstats comes up one year short and WrestleStat starts one year too late. Any chance you have those or know where I can find them? It might've been in wrestlingstats.com but alas their query system has been down for a couple months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 Just now, 98lberEating2Lunches said: (I edited to use Pinfall to honor your position.) I think % done that way could eliminate the need to look at some of the rows. It would also avoid the risk of double-value an evaluation criteria, given total matches is already accounted for. I probably would create explicit weightings for each criteria along with some scoring method. I think it's clear yours might be international accolades. Ask and ye shall receive. The percentages are now: Percentage of all matches won by pinfall, Percentage of all matches not won by pinfall that were won by tech fall, Percentage of all matches not won by pinfall or tech fall that were won by major decision Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ionel said: It might've been in wrestlingstats.com but alas their query system has been down for a couple months. Wrestlingstats Okie State data is only through 2012. Dieringer was a freshman in 2013. WrestleStat starts in 2014. Sigh. Edited April 25, 2023 by Wrestleknownothing Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Stankowski Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Oh that I could get his freshman stats. Wrestlingstats comes up one year short and WrestleStat starts one year too late. Any chance you have those or know where I can find them? 35-3 - 10 pins - 13 MD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Wrestlingstats Okie State data is only through 2012. Dieringer was a freshman in 2013. WrestleStat starts in 2014. Sigh. Hmm ... that is unfortunate ... have you looked in the abyss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98lberEating2Lunches Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) Thanks. And now if you eliminate some the double counting of rows in normalized spreadsheet how much more of a gap between low and high happens for Nolf, Nickal, and Retherford. And how much would Spencer improve? Lowest number being better, using that method, I am going to go Nolf, NIckal, Retherford, then TBD. I had a feeling Spencer would look better. Edited April 25, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ivan Stankowski said: 35-3 - 10 pins - 13 MD Thank you. TFs? Were all the losses decisions? Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Stankowski Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Thank you. TFs? Were all the losses decisions? Ill dig that up later tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchapman Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 26 minutes ago, Ivan Stankowski said: Dieringer by far, I do not wrestlestat to tell me that. Was he an AWA? Another Wisconsin miss Rumor was he didn't get accepted to Wisconsin. Craig Henning got screwed in the 2007 NCAA Finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11986 Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Thank you. TFs? Were all the losses decisions? his NCAA tournament loss was 3-2 TB to the eventual champ, so there's 1 of the 3 losses accounted for anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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