Jump to content
  • Playwire Ad Area

Shilson v Mortimer head bounce


Recommended Posts

Listening to Askren - says it is a well known move to bounce opponents face off mat from that position.  Fair move.  Whole purpose is to slam face into mat so that they release grip to protect head. 

What? It is a wrestling move to purposefully slam a head into the mat.  That is the whole purpose of the move so that the other wrestler releases a grip?

I say no.  Hell no.  If this logic works, then purposeful elbow to face should be just fine.  Or knee to face.  How about head butt to face.  All involve purposefully slamming face with force. 
 

It is BS.

 

  • Fire 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Listening to Askren - says it is a well known move to bounce opponents face off mat from that position.  Fair move.  Whole purpose is to slam face into mat so that they release grip to protect head. 

What? It is a wrestling move to purposefully slam a head into the mat.  That is the whole purpose of the move so that the other wrestler releases a grip?

I say no.  Hell no.  If this logic works, then purposeful elbow to face should be just fine.  Or knee to face.  How about head butt to face.  All involve purposefully slamming face with force. 
 

It is BS.

 

Name a single USA senior world team member who stoops to this type of stuff.

I've seen multiple wrestling careers ended, mostly at the collegiate level, where dirty wrestlers were served up a heaping pile of their own product.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there examples of legal moves where the full intent is to injure your opponent in order to get the opponent to release a hold?  
 

Askren was very clear - this head bounce move is to be executed by slamming the person’s head hard into the mat.  Really hard.  Askren emphasized this.  The risk of injury (smashed nose / face; concussion) is what you are trying to instill on your opponent - this prompting them to release the elbow.

Some ideas I expect will come up and we’re mentioned on FRL.

Very hard head snap - there is downward pressure on head but not as much as with this bounce.  Opponent hands are generally free.  Has more opportunity to mitigate risk given hand position, strength of back, and distance to mat.  So not as extreme a risk but worth debate.  

Lift and return to mat.  Opponent needs to protect themself.  But lifting wrestler also has duty to not slam.  Specifically, they can’t drill opponent head into mat.  Lifted wrestler has time to decide what to do.  That first head bounce is very quick and hard to react that fast.  Express goal of move is not to threaten injury.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

this was the worst DQ i've ever seen. every coach i've ever had taught to "bounce" the opponent's head of the mat to clear elbows. in practice, this is not literal. it's a coaching queue that just means to snap and retract the elbows to clear when your opponent has to react to the snap. it is not mortimer's fault that shilson did not react and got her face bounced of the mat. there was nothing dirty there whatsoever.

i saw another "headbutt" DQ that was just as bad at the same tournament. nothing more than sexism/treating women wrestler's like they're children made of glass. zero percent chance a men's match is officiated this way.

https://twitter.com/MrPatMineo/status/1647356658887057412?s=20

Edited by uncle bernard
  • Fire 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Are there examples of legal moves where the full intent is to injure your opponent in order to get the opponent to release a hold?  
 

Askren was very clear - this head bounce move is to be executed by slamming the person’s head hard into the mat.  Really hard.  Askren emphasized this.  The risk of injury (smashed nose / face; concussion) is what you are trying to instill on your opponent - this prompting them to release the elbow.

Some ideas I expect will come up and we’re mentioned on FRL.

Very hard head snap - there is downward pressure on head but not as much as with this bounce.  Opponent hands are generally free.  Has more opportunity to mitigate risk given hand position, strength of back, and distance to mat.  So not as extreme a risk but worth debate.  

Lift and return to mat.  Opponent needs to protect themself.  But lifting wrestler also has duty to not slam.  Specifically, they can’t drill opponent head into mat.  Lifted wrestler has time to decide what to do.  That first head bounce is very quick and hard to react that fast.  Express goal of move is not to threaten injury.  

you're overreacting to a coaching queue. i also hear people say "punch a crossface." 

i can't believe there are actual wrestling fans who thing a front headlock snap is dirty. honest question: did you actually wrestle?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes.  I wrestled. Did you even listen to Askren. He was literal.  Very clear.  Objective was to threaten injury and bounce head off mat hard.

I’m fine with up and down bouncing.  I’m not fine with a fast and intentional smashing of opponents head into the mat so that for the next one the person releases a hold.  That is bullshit.

how is this different from a top wrestler with bottom wrestler flat,  putting both hands on opponent’s head, and then slamming the opponent’s face repeatedly into mat so they build a base?


 

 

Edited by Dark Energy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i mean every move is based on leverage of some kind... 

is the risk of concussion a little different.. i think yes in light of our knowledge of head injuries 

 

we used to have guys gumby out of a spiral..  let their shoulder slip so they could get a potential dangerous call... 

obviously a spiral is going against a joint... whether the shoulder comes up or not...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every time a rules debate goes big on social media, I'm unfortunately reminded how ignorant the average wrestling fan is. We saw it with the cutback debate after Dapper Dan. 90% of fans don't understand the rules beyond the rudimentary basics, but speak on them as authoritative experts.

2 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Yes.  I wrestled. Did you even listen to Askren. He was literal.  Very clear.  Objective was to threaten injury and bounce head off mat hard.

I’m fine with up and down bouncing.  I’m not fine with a fast and intentional smashing of opponents head into the mat so that for the next one the person releases a hold.  That is bullshit.

how is this different from a top wrestler with bottom wrestler flat,  putting both hands on opponent’s head, and then slamming the opponent’s face repeatedly into mat so they build a base?


 

 

Because they're defenseless in that scenario. You can't be serious. 

Shilson has a responsibility to protect herself and she didn't. That's not Mortimer's fault. 

When I snap someone or throw an underhook by, I don't do it half-speed on the off chance my opponent doesn't react and flies face first into the mat. 

The reality is that this was a freak accident resulting from clean technique. Shilson's concussion history is a major player here. It sucks, but it's on her. She didn't protect herself in a standard wrestling position.

  • Fire 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.usawmembership.com/usa_wrestling_rule_book

Quote

Brutality

It is against the rules to intentionally inflict pain on the opponent by using unnecessary roughness with the clear intent to injure an opponent. The wrestler who uses these types of holds and moves will be disqualified from the match they are competing in and may be disqualified from the tournament.  If the officials decide to call brutality against a wrestler, it must be unanimous among all three officials.  Any calls for the wrestler who committed brutality to be removed from the tournament will be reviewed by the head official.

All three mat officials agreed and then head official agreed as well.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

I have to say I have never seen anyone do that in any match I've been in or have watched.   I would call that slamming and not part of wrestling.  I was crossfaced once in veterans competition that was pretty brutal, I almost went out.   I was stunned and really couldn't wrestle for a little while, and as a result lost pretty bad. 

mspart

  • Fire 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel I need to clarify.   I was never that good, but did wrestle at Veterans Nationals 3 years in Vegas.   I had a good time, met some great folks, and lost a lot.  The match described above, probably would have ended in a loss as well without the crossface.    Looking back I think I should have gotten really mad and took it to him, but I was really stunned to where I couldn't move much.   It wasn't even real competition, just a side match because he didn't have any competition at his age and weight.   I've been crossfaced many times, but that was the hardest one I have ever had put on me.   I would not say it was illegal or illegitimate.   But I certainly was not ready for it. 

mspart

  • Fire 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mspart said:

I have to say I have never seen anyone do that in any match I've been in or have watched.   I would call that slamming and not part of wrestling.  I was crossfaced once in veterans competition that was pretty brutal, I almost went out.   I was stunned and really couldn't wrestle for a little while, and as a result lost pretty bad. 

mspart

I was inclined to agree with @El Luchador.  However, it is also possible Shilson was stunned by the first one and it didn't occur to her that she needed to change defense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Playwire Ad Area



  • Playwire Ad Area
  • Latest Rankings

  • College Commitments

    Adam Mattin

    Delta, Ohio
    Class of 2025
    Committed to Stanford
    Projected Weight: 125, 133

    Grant Stromberg

    Mukwonago, Wisconsin
    Class of 2024
    Committed to Northern Iowa
    Projected Weight: 285

    Hudson Ward

    Canton, Pennsylvania
    Class of 2024
    Committed to Lock Haven
    Projected Weight: 165

    Alex Reed

    Shikellamy, Pennsylvania
    Class of 2024
    Committed to Lock Haven
    Projected Weight: 125

    Darren Florance

    Harpursville, New York
    Class of 2024
    Committed to Lock Haven
    Projected Weight: 125
  • Playwire Ad Area
×
×
  • Create New...