Shilson v Mortimer head bounce

[El Luchador]

She shouldn't have to change,  she should have been using proper defense already.  There isn't a lot to do from there,  but doing nothing will hurt the most. When you've already given up the undertook you need to get your elbow down. Having your elbow back glued to your lat is to keep them out of the underhook.

[El Luchador]

Should this be a DQ?

 

[Dark Energy]

10 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

Should this be a DQ?

 

Was the move done with the express purpose of threatening or causing a serious head injury in order for the opposing wrestler to release a legal hold?  

[Mike Parrish]

Perhaps a salient point is that four referees on site determined that it was a disqualifying move?

[MPhillips]

If it was illegal/dangerous/brutal why wasn't it stopped after the first bounce or not called immediately after the second? Is the qualifier that, she was knocked out?  Not being cantankerous here.

[Mike Parrish]

11 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

If it was illegal/dangerous/brutal why wasn't it stopped after the first bounce or not called immediately after the second? Is the qualifier that, she was knocked out?  Not being cantankerous here.

The fact that she was knocked out by those two bounces would warrant a long look at the video.
That's not a common occurrence at this level of competition.

In the video review, I think it looks like it was intentional.

The refs at the tournament came to the same conclusion.
The takedown was revoked and points removed from Mortimer.

See also, Vayle Baker's headbutt that got her DQd from the tournament.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Mike Parrish

[El Luchador]

13 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Perhaps a salient point is that four referees on site determined that it was a disqualifying move?

Well the guy on whistle doesn't belong on the mat,  so there's that.

[Mike Parrish]

Just now, El Luchador said:

Well the guy on whistle doesn't belong on the mat,  so there's that.

The center ref?

Why?

[El Luchador]

30 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Was the move done with the express purpose of threatening or causing a serious head injury in order for the opposing wrestler to release a legal hold?  

No but neither was the other. Stretch bounce and go behind. Basic front head position. 

[Mike Parrish]

Just now, El Luchador said:

No but neither was the other. Stretch bounce and go behind. Basic front head position. 

So what is your guess as to why all four refs came to the same conclusion and DQ'd Mortimer from the tournament?
It can only be from the Brutality clause in the rules.

[Dark Energy]

Just now, El Luchador said:

No but neither was the other. Stretch bounce and go behind. Basic front head position. 

It clearly was … hard head slam.  Another hard head slam.  Done with intent to at least threaten injury so as to get opponent to release hold.  Not ok.

[El Luchador]

Just now, Mike Parrish said:

The center ref?

Why?

He is awful. He has botched matches bad. I'm not getting into it but he is bad.

[MPhillips]

I get the four refs conclusion, but was it because she was out? Was that the determiner? 

Edited April 19, 2023 by MPhillips

[El Luchador]

2 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

It clearly was … hard head slam.  Another hard head slam.  Done with intent to at least threaten injury so as to get opponent to release hold.  Not ok.

Well I'm not a mind reader so I'll just judge the action.

[El Luchador]

Just now, MPhillips said:

I get the four refs conclusion, but was it because she was out?

Exactly. 

[Mike Parrish]

1 minute ago, MPhillips said:

I get the four refs conclusion, but was it because she was out? Was that the determiner? 

I think that the fact that she got knocked out (and that Mortimer seemed to know it and didn't stop) prompted the review.

 

[Mike Parrish]

7 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

He is awful. He has botched matches bad. I'm not getting into it but he is bad.

Fair enough.
Welcome to women's wrestling, where the refs are terrible and the parents scream at the screen.

I have my own list of women's refs who should never, ever, ever be allowed to ref another match.

 

I give you the most cringey moment.

The center ref overruled the Trackwrestling tiebreaker criteria and Mike Jones filed his one and only challenge of his coaching career.

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5061169-they-re-wrestled-a-semifinal-at-wcwa-nationals
 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Mike Parrish

[MPhillips]

1 minute ago, Mike Parrish said:

I think that the fact that she got knocked out prompted the review.

 

That's what it seemed like to me.

[El Luchador]

1 minute ago, Mike Parrish said:

Fair enough.
Welcome to women's wrestling, where the refs are terrible and the parents scream at the screen.

He has done sr. mens matches too. He's likable enough but he has had some significant f ups.

[Mike Parrish]

Just now, El Luchador said:

He has done sr. mens matches too. He's likable enough but he has had some significant f ups.

Then have a beer with him, but don't let him ref.

Young refs usually get better, but if you're on your 5th year of reffing or later and you're still screwing the pooch on a regular basis, stop disrespecting the athletes and become a pairing official or something.

[El Luchador]

Here's and intro to basic front head defense. 

 

 

 

[Dark Energy]

Ok. Now show the video where the coach says to do best to slam the opponents face into mat hard, repeatedly.  Per Askren this is the goal in order to get arm free.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Dark Energy

[uncle bernard]

16 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

@uncle bernardyour logic has tremendous holes.  Pretty much no move would be illegal.  Opponent just needs to defend themselves.  Easy as that.  Stop being a wus.  

No actually your logic would make many basic moves illegal. There are moves that are illegal because they put wrestlers in dangerous positions that aren't defensible. Getting snapped in a front headlock position isn't one of them.

You should be arguing that half nelsons are illegal. If my opponent doesn't turn - like Shilson doesn't defend herself - I will rip their arm off. That should be illegal.

15 hours ago, mspart said:

I have to say I have never seen anyone do that in any match I've been in or have watched.   I would call that slamming and not part of wrestling.  I was crossfaced once in veterans competition that was pretty brutal, I almost went out.   I was stunned and really couldn't wrestle for a little while, and as a result lost pretty bad. 

mspart

It's true that you rarely see something like that because it's incredibly difficult to snap someone so effectively. Mortimer is being punished for being good at the move. 

Here's a fact: If Shilson doesn't go out, nobody would have given that sequence a second thought, including the officials who didn't stop it until they realized she was out.

[Dark Energy]

I’m not saying what you say I’m saying.  Here is what I’m saying … a move whose sole purpose is to threaten or cause injury so as to get a wrestler to release a grip is not ok. I’m being very specific.

on top of that, let’s be more specific — a move whose sole purpose is to threaten or cause a head injury so as to get a wrestler to release a grip, is not ok.

I don’t care if the potentially injured wrestler could figure out a way to defend.   We are talking about intent and potential harm.  
 

This is not hard.  And I don’t care if people were trained to do this.  Head injuries are a big deal.  The sport is doing more to prevent them.  
 

A move SPECIFICALLY designed to cause a head injury if the defending wrestler isn’t quick or wise enough to defend it —- is NOT ok.   

This is pretty simple.

[Dark Energy]

And on the point that the match would not have been stopped if she didn’t go unconscious … you are likely right.  

Which is also not ok.  Doing a move … 2 times, which purposefully aims to injure … and only giving a moderate concussion … is still unacceptable.