Best NCAA Single Season Team Ever...

[Antitroll2828]

6 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I won't.

But I still think it cost Lee Kemp more. Lee Kemp is someone people don't give the credit he's due. SHOULD have been the 1st 4X National Champion IMO. Gets the only TD and loses on a referees decision.

Won a WC at 21, youngest ever(until Captain America...I believe). Won a couple more.

Won the last 110 matches of his career, including helping Dan Gable decide to stay retired as an 18 year old Soph in College. 

 

 I think if Lee Kemp wrestles in that Olympics, people would regard him as arguably the best US Wrestler ever and he was at 74KG. I say this with all due respect, I think that weight is generally...a better quality than 114. 

 

I'm also biased. He's one of the most inspirational and insightful people I've ever had the pleasure to meet in my life, and brief though those meetings were and with little reason for him to remember me, he has still said high every time I've seen him since, even asked how I was doing.

 

So Mills may have been the favorite...I still think it elevates Kemp's status more than Mills. 

I’m not disagreeing with your take , Lee Kemp is criminally underrated but to this day gene mills still rants about those Olympics and jimmy carter, seems like kemp made peace with it a long time ago, had the pleasure to meet Mills a few times , my dad and some of his teammates trained with him back in the day in NJ and I don’t think he ll ever get over missing out on that shot…

Been following Kemp grandson for a few years , showed some flashes as a true Freshman for Fresno state  but doesn’t seem like he’s improved much since then hopefully the light eventually turns on for him , listed as a senior but I believe he has 2 years left 

[D3 for LU]

Gene Mills was an amazing 52Kg that was beating the likes of Anatoly Belaglazov (Olympic & World champ(s)) when the USA freestylers were getting beat by the Soviets regularly.

When he went up in weight (57Kg-62Kg) later on, he was a bit more vulnerable (injuries didn't help either.) Definitely a BIG 114.5, that was VERY mean (hey YOU try melting 10-20lbs in a short amount of time to make weight, YOU'LL be a mean SOB as well!)

D3

[D3 for LU]

ALSO agree, that Lee Kemp was a great one that didn't get to wrestle in the Olympics (multiple WC under his belt.)

My Dad and I saw his NCAA finals @ Princeton in '75, where he lost by Ref dec. in OT to Chuck Yagla (we thought that Lee was the winner in that match... THAT close on becoming the NCAA's first 4 X'er!)

D3

[jchapman]

4 hours ago, D3 for LU said:

ALSO agree, that Lee Kemp was a great one that didn't get to wrestle in the Olympics (multiple WC under his belt.)

My Dad and I saw his NCAA finals @ Princeton in '75, where he lost by Ref dec. in OT to Chuck Yagla (we thought that Lee was the winner in that match... THAT close on becoming the NCAA's first 4 X'er!)

D3

Kemp scored the only TD in the match, yet they gave it to Yagla.

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

I'll always be particularly impressed by the Arizona State Sun Devils' 1988 team which won it all despite having to travel so far so often for championship-caliber competition.   Current coach Zeke Jones was a sophomore on that team, by the way:

https://thesundevils.com/news/2018/1/20/1988-sun-devils-put-west-coast-wrestling-on-the-map.aspx

Talk about a team effort... they apparently had no NCAA champs the year that they nevertheless won the NCAAs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_NCAA_Division_I_Wrestling_Championships  

Admittedly the Minnesota Gophers team circa 2000 that had no NCAA finalists but still won it all impresses me too....  Such teams put some suspense back in our sport's team title chases.   That helps boost interest in it.   

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by TitleIX is ripe for reform

[scourge165]

8 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

I’m not disagreeing with your take , Lee Kemp is criminally underrated but to this day gene mills still rants about those Olympics and jimmy carter, seems like kemp made peace with it a long time ago, had the pleasure to meet Mills a few times , my dad and some of his teammates trained with him back in the day in NJ and I don’t think he ll ever get over missing out on that shot…

Been following Kemp grandson for a few years , showed some flashes as a true Freshman for Fresno state  but doesn’t seem like he’s improved much since then hopefully the light eventually turns on for him , listed as a senior but I believe he has 2 years left 

Oh, in that respect, you're absolutely right. Kemp seems to be totally at peace with his career(which...I'm sure he's lying to himself a LITTLE bit...as Chael said, every Wrestler has regrets). But he says he is, he seems like he's over it.

If Geen Mills still laments the boycott(and I don't blame him...) then I guess in that sense it "cost" him more. 

I wonder what the sentiment would be if the Olympics were being held in Moscow instead of Parris? Speaking of which, I wonder if that's part of the reason that among the kinda leading NATO nations, France is the one who doesn't want to see Russia/Belarus banned?

 

As for Adam Kemp, that's not his grandson, that's his Son. He talks about how his Dad had to pay him to go out for the sport.

There's a documentary I can't believe I haven't watched, but it sounds like he had a lot of personal struggles in his life...right around the time that I'd first met him(he came to speak to a group and then I got to spend a few minutes and he was an extraordinarily inspiring man). 

 

Son sounds like he's very bright and I get the feeling Wrestling isn't his life as Wrestling Centric as some others, but he seems very driven business wise. His father was as well. 
Talks about growing up during the very contentious divorce(not that he goes into detail). The Documentary(apparently) talks about how his wife dealt with psychological issues, he lost custody, there was a restraining order, eventually he regained full custody. Just an aside to remember, you never know what shit people are dealing with in life.

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

I'll always be particularly impressed by the Arizona State Sun Devils' 1988 team which won it all despite having to travel so far so often for championship-caliber competition.   Current coach Zeke Jones was a sophomore on that team, by the way:

https://thesundevils.com/news/2018/1/20/1988-sun-devils-put-west-coast-wrestling-on-the-map.aspx

Talk about a team effort... they apparently had no NCAA champs the year that they nevertheless won the NCAAs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_NCAA_Division_I_Wrestling_Championships  

Admittedly the Minnesota Gophers team circa 2000 that had no NCAA finalists but still won it all impresses me too....  Such teams put some suspense back in our sport's team title chases.   That helps boost interest in it.   

 

YES...that is HUGE. I absolutely agree. We pretty much already know who's going to be the team champs next year, the year after, and likely the next 5-6 years(at least). 

[scourge165]

11 hours ago, 11986 said:

Fwiw Lee Kemp’s wiki page says he retired after being runner-up in the ‘84 Olympic Trials. I’ve not found anything yet that mentions Jimmy Z being runner-up in trials on any occasion. In ‘80 he would have been pretty young to be a contender, ‘84 again was apparently Kemp, ‘88 pretty sure Dave Schultz was runner-up to Kenny Monday. Not sure who Monday beat in ‘92 and ‘96. 
 

agree with all you’ve said in terms of Kemp’s great career being somewhat overlooked due to lack of Olympic Gold. 

As I said, they described him as an "Olympic Alternate," and such a thing doesn't exist. So I don't know. So I'm not sure. 

[scourge165]

11 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

 

This is incorrect. Lee lost a match his junior year and tied a match his senior year. His best win streak was 55. Those two matches wouldn’t count today, but they can’t be retroactively removed from his record.

 

They can be if we're trying to use a way to compare records. 

How about he had a 110 match winning streak vs College competition?

Quote

Kemp scored the only TD in the match, yet they gave it to Yagla.

@jchapman

Yeah...that's amazing. 3 years earlier, getting cut from Basketball and barely .500

Then gets his ass kicked by Yagla, then comes back, gets a split decision when he was the only one to score a TD. THAT close to being considered the GOAT.

 

Yet another reason why you can't just rank Wrestlers by AA finishes. With respect to Stieber or even Yianni(and I have a LOT of respect for them)...I'll take Kemp over either on an all-time list. He was a monster. Forced Gable back into retirement at 18 years old!

[Jason Bryant]

8 hours ago, scourge165 said:

They can be if we're trying to use a way to compare records. 

How about he had a 110 match winning streak vs College competition?

@jchapman

Yeah...that's amazing. 3 years earlier, getting cut from Basketball and barely .500

Then gets his ass kicked by Yagla, then comes back, gets a split decision when he was the only one to score a TD. THAT close to being considered the GOAT.

 

Yet another reason why you can't just rank Wrestlers by AA finishes. With respect to Stieber or even Yianni(and I have a LOT of respect for them)...I'll take Kemp over either on an all-time list. He was a monster. Forced Gable back into retirement at 18 years old!

His tie was against a collegian, in a bout where results counted at the time. Can't scrub those from the record books. If you're using an incorrect stat to compare, it's still an incorrect stat and isn't being compared accurately. Kemp was amazing, one of the best and I totally agree he's undervalued by wrestling fans in terms of how good he was, his credentials, etc., but in his era, those matches counted and were countable - and one of them was to a collegian. 
He was 39-0 as a sophomore, 40-1 as a junior and 31-0-1 as a senior. That's still one of the top three-year runs the sport has ever seen, but he didn't win 110 in a row. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Jason Bryant
Misplaced hyphen

[scourge165]

10 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

His tie was against a collegian, in a bout where results counted at the time. Can't scrub those from the record books. If you're using an incorrect stat to compare, it's still an incorrect stat and isn't being compared accurately. Kemp was amazing, one of the best and I totally agree he's undervalued by wrestling fans in terms of how good he was, his credentials, etc., but in his era, those matches counted and were countable - and one of them was to a collegian. 
He was 39-0 as a sophomore, 40-1 as a junior and 31-0-1 as a senior. That's still one of the top three-year runs the sport has ever seen, but he didn't win 110 in a row. 

STILL not trying to "scrub the record," I'm trying to use how we count wins and losses today and applying it to him. Cael Sanderson isn't 178-1 because he lost his RS year, right? So I'm just using the same standard EVERYONE else(figuratively speaking, but virtually everyone) uses. 

There's a reason why every reference to Kemp says he was unbeaten in his final 110 matches. 

Take it up with the establishment! 

 

[Jason Bryant]

STILL not trying to "scrub the record," I'm trying to use how we count wins and losses today and applying it to him. Cael Sanderson isn't 178-1 because he lost his RS year, right? So I'm just using the same standard EVERYONE else(figuratively speaking, but virtually everyone) uses. 
There's a reason why every reference to Kemp says he was unbeaten in his final 110 matches. 
Take it up with the establishment! 
 

The reason is because it’s incorrectly coming from the same source. Lee. Cael is 159-0 based on the rules at the time. Lee is what he is based on the rules at time, even the HOF corrected the inaccuracy. The standard to be used is the rules at the time and of the era. It’s why Gable’s win streak is what it is and doesn’t count his freshman year.

Lee can’t change the rules. He’s one of the GOATS but facts are what they are. That IS the establishment’s opinion on it. A tie doesn’t exist today, so you can’t apply records in that era in the same manner. That’s the fact.

[scourge165]

22 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

The reason is because it’s incorrectly coming from the same source. Lee. Cael is 159-0 based on the rules at the time. Lee is what he is based on the rules at time, even the HOF corrected the inaccuracy. The standard to be used is the rules at the time and of the era. It’s why Gable’s win streak is what it is and doesn’t count his freshman year.

Lee can’t change the rules. He’s one of the GOATS but facts are what they are. That IS the establishment’s opinion on it. A tie doesn’t exist today, so you can’t apply records in that era in the same manner. That’s the fact.

No...he can't. But I can change the criteria I USE on a Wrestling forum when his tie was in a exhibition and his loss was to guy who'd graduated. 

26 year old Dan Gable beating 18 year Lee Kemp(if that had gone the other way) wouldn't be a loss I would count as a College loss for Kemp either.

I'm not talking about the "official rules," or "scrubbing," anything. I'm applying the same standard to him as we'd apply to Wrestlers now. And you can't do that with Gable because...he didn't Wrestle varsity. 

[Jason Bryant]

Fact. Kemp didn’t win his last 110 bouts. Fact. Kemp wasn’t unbeaten in his last 110 bouts.

That what I commented on and that’s what I clarified based on your posting of an inaccurate stat. Argue it all you want. I’m done repeating myself.

All Star didn’t become an exhibition until 2004.

[scourge165]

32 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

Fact. Kemp didn’t win his last 110 bouts. Fact. Kemp wasn’t unbeaten in his last 110 bouts.

That what I commented on and that’s what I clarified based on your posting of an inaccurate stat. Argue it all you want. I’m done repeating myself.

All Star didn’t become an exhibition until 2004.

Bud...relax. This was literally all I said that got you going on the "well actually."

 

22 hours ago, scourge165 said:

They can be if we're trying to use a way to compare records.