Portal is good, no?

[Offthemat]

Seems the portal and NIL are turning college sports into a version of fantasy pick-em.  

[BobDole]

7 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Had 15 minutes with your wife and it wasn't great - she's a smelly old fish, that one.

... not like your Mom!

Both are a little stiff these days.

[Show_Me]

On 4/3/2023 at 9:52 PM, KCMO2 said:

Any time a mid to lower tier school has an AA, some upper tier school will make an offer to them.  The rich will keep getting richer.  Wouldn't be surprised to see this start killing weaker programs.

This

It’s great for PSU, Iowa, & other high profile programs.  Not so sure if it’s good for the other 60 or so that are losing their best wrestlers.

[Formally140]

40 minutes ago, Show_Me said:

This

It’s great for PSU, Iowa, & other high profile programs.  Not so sure if it’s good for the other 60 or so that are losing their best wrestlers.

I’m honestly getting the impression the big figures/coaches see this and either

1. just want to win as much as they can before it crashes down

2. Want to “win” so bad and want as little depth of competition as possible and poaching other coaches work just makes “winning” easier

Either way. It’s become pretty obvious that the trend is towards poaching and eliminating depth of competition. Then finding excuses to justify it

[BLT]

No

[CHROMEBIRD]

On 4/3/2023 at 7:52 PM, KCMO2 said:

Any time a mid to lower tier school has an AA, some upper tier school will make an offer to them.  The rich will keep getting richer.  Wouldn't be surprised to see this start killing weaker programs.

Portal + NIL are a brutal combo. 

[headshuck]

Portal + NIL are a brutal combo. 

+ lopsided funds + RTC.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

On 4/7/2023 at 7:07 PM, Formally140 said:

I’m honestly getting the impression the big figures/coaches see this and either

1. just want to win as much as they can before it crashes down

2. Want to “win” so bad and want as little depth of competition as possible and poaching other coaches work just makes “winning” easier

Either way. It’s become pretty obvious that the trend is towards poaching and eliminating depth of competition. Then finding excuses to justify it

Of all the things that could potentially lead to the demise of wrestling.

Who would have thought that the biggest predator would be some of the wrestling coaches themselves.

Did not see that one coming. All the talk about hard work and honor - and at the end of the day, just about money and medals. That's more than a little pathetic.

Starting to look like wrestling's recent upward trajectory is taking a turn for the worse. Dammit.

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Of all the things that could potentially lead to the demise of wrestling.

Who would have thought that the biggest predator would be some of the wrestling coaches themselves.

Did not see that one coming. All the talk about hard work and honor - and at the end of the day, just about money and medals. That's more than a little pathetic.

Starting to look like wrestling's recent upward trajectory is taking a turn for the worse. Dammit.

I think things will settle in. You create bonds and friendships at a school...and while being recruited or wanted is always nice, I think schools will get burned by kids, kids will regret their choices, others will show a bit more loyalty.

I don't see any school just adding kids and giving them NIL just so they can "thin out" other teams, their competition. Especially since PSU is the primary team doing it and they've got guys going there making them 2-3 deep at some weights...which will probably sort itself out and they'll likely end up losing Wrestlers and become a victim of their own success. Mirasola's, Ryder, Barr, Sealey, on top of Haines, Van Ness Facundo, there are guys who just won't be able to make the lineup from '65-97, guys who are high AA caliber Wrestlers who'll likely end up elsewhere. 

It is sad to see the kids who have success at smaller schools leave. To play devils advocate though, if Caleb Smith(hypothetically) is having success at App State, how much could he potentially improve at PSU in that room with those partners? 

 

At the same time, even if there are only 3-4 programs who are really competitive, is that really that much difference Wrestling since Gable became an assistant coach at Iowa? Iowa and PSU have dominated on the two sides with Okie State having a dominant run or two sprinkled in.

41 Titles for Iowa, Okie St, PSU
3 for Minnesota
2 for Iowa State
1 for ASU
1 for OSU

(I just did a cursory glance, I may be missing someone)

It's not great for the sport, no question about that. 

The portal is certainly another tool to help the rich stay rich, but I'm not sure how we combat that. A guy like Koll at OU could maybe help them become competitive again.

A new wave of coaches could certainly help. Jordan Burroughs, David Taylor, Kyle Dake. Missouri looks like they MIGHT be able to break through. But I guess we just have to root for the uneven results from the portal so programs aren't investing into a Wrester another school developed and started to have success with. It's a shitty situation, but it's also what we've had as long as I can recall. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by scourge165

[Idaho]

 

5 hours ago, scourge165 said:

It's not great for the sport, no question about that. 

The portal is certainly another tool to help the rich stay rich, but I'm not sure how we combat that. A guy like Koll at OU could maybe help them become competitive again.

A new wave of coaches could certainly help. Jordan Burroughs, David Taylor, Kyle Dake. Missouri looks like they MIGHT be able to break through. But I guess we just have to root for the uneven results from the portal so programs aren't investing into a Wrester another school developed and started to have success with. It's a shitty situation, but it's also what we've had as long as I can recall. 

It's not good - I agree , any way that you regulate/combat  the NIL and portal it will be challenged in court. If they want to model it after pro sports there would be an NIL cap of money to be spent along with the number of portal moves that can be made.... but then you need a union to negotiate that.... so we end up with pro sports at the amateur level with the NCAA ball connected to the chain. It is certainly a mess with the rich getting richer. Coaches used to have to develop wrestlers... now a weak spot in teh lineup just means a portal transfer.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Idaho

[jackwebster]

5 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I don't see any school just adding kids and giving them NIL just so they can "thin out" other teams.

No, but teams want all the good kids, and kids believe in themselves. So, the end result it the same.

[Formally140]

7 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Of all the things that could potentially lead to the demise of wrestling.

Who would have thought that the biggest predator would be some of the wrestling coaches themselves.

Did not see that one coming. All the talk about hard work and honor - and at the end of the day, just about money and medals. That's more than a little pathetic.

Starting to look like wrestling's recent upward trajectory is taking a turn for the worse. Dammit.

It’s not just college. The trend in high school is even worse. And no I’m not saying this because I’ve lost kids. I’ve actually been told I should do more to poach and “acquire” talent.  
 

I can simultaneously be happy about the better coverage and exposure and be concerned about trends 

[ionel]

7 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I don't see any school just adding kids and giving them NIL just so they can "thin out" other teams, their competition.

 

2 hours ago, jackwebster said:

No, but teams want all the good kids, and kids believe in themselves. So, the end result it the same.

This was happening with scholarships before the limit, then we moved toward more parity in the sport, we reached a point where any one of four or five teams had a chance to win it in a given year.  The NCAA then decided to ignore all and then with camp $s, RTC and more $s, other shinigans and now NIL $s we moved away from parity and right back to what we were trying to prevent. 

[Offthemat]

42 minutes ago, ionel said:

 

This was happening with scholarships before the limit, then we moved toward more parity in the sport, we reached a point where any one of four or five teams had a chance to win it in a given year.  The NCAA then decided to ignore all and then with camp $s, RTC and more $s, other shinigans and now NIL $s we moved away from parity and right back to what we were trying to prevent. 

Are salary caps the next augmentation?

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Offthemat said:

Are salary caps the next augmentation?

salary caps for ... ?

[ionel]

23 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

Are salary caps the next augmentation?

and maybe we need calorie caps?  Think about it ... everyone gets free food, is it fair that football consumes more free calories than wrestling?  

[Offthemat]

56 minutes ago, ionel said:

salary caps for ... ?

Limit total team NIL and coaches salaries and anything they can dream up to get back to parity they once had before they started screwing with it. 

[ionel]

5 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

Limit total team NIL and coaches salaries and anything they can dream up to get back to parity they once had before they started screwing with it. 

A good idea but yeah never happen, think of the b10 ... they'd lose their huge network and population advanced for million dollar NIL offers.   Where is the NCAA?  Yeah ... pretty much explains it.  

[scourge165]

7 hours ago, jackwebster said:

No, but teams want all the good kids, and kids believe in themselves. So, the end result it the same.

Fair enough, but is this any different than the past? Not sure it is. 

The difference now is it's easier for a kid who's stuck behind a Max Dean to transfer and not lose a year of eligibility. 

This is one of those things that really hurt Women's Basketball, or most of the...people get upset when I use the word "Niche" but the...smaller sports? The non-revenue generating. However you'd like to phrase it, but when you know before the season who's going to win, it's not good for the sport. You knew UConn was going to win WCBB for years, before that it was Tennessee. Even if you didn't follow it, you knew that.

The one thing Wrestling has going for it at all levels, you obviously don't know who's going to win the individual weights and that brings in fans from every school. 

 

That is one thing that makes the sport so great. You can find guys from anywhere. Northern Colorado can beat the #1 ranked Wrestler from the University of Iowa.
You can have guys who didn't win a State Title win a NC. 
You can have a guy who didn't Wrestle in HS win 6 NCs!...though Haslerig may have had a tougher time today, still, it happened.

All the same, it'd be nice to see a little more intrigue as it pertains to the team Champs. 

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, Offthemat said:

Limit total team NIL and coaches salaries and anything they can dream up to get back to parity they once had before they started screwing with it. 

When did we really have this parity though?

Gable had a couple years his team didn't win it, but very little. The closest we really had was a ~5-6 year stretch when Minnesota finally broke through, then Okie State had a run with Pendleton, Hendricks, Mocco, Thompson...etc...

Seems like Wrestling has always had one power house and that every so often another team would challenge them or beat them, but not prolonged periods of parity. 

Unless you're referencing just parity in terms of resources. Taking the NIL money out of the equation and giving teams the 9.9 scholarships and then having to sell the other Wrestlers on their programs and just recruit based on that. 
 

[ionel]

11 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

When did we really have this parity though?

Gable had a couple years his team didn't win it, but very little. The closest we really had was a ~5-6 year stretch when Minnesota finally broke through, then Okie State had a run with Pendleton, Hendricks, Mocco, Thompson...etc...

Seems like Wrestling has always had one power house and that every so often another team would challenge them or beat them, but not prolonged periods of parity. 

Unless you're referencing just parity in terms of resources. Taking the NIL money out of the equation and giving teams the 9.9 scholarships and then having to sell the other Wrestlers on their programs and just recruit based on that. 
 

If recall correctly when Cael was at ISU we were at/going into a pretty good parity state where several teams had the ability to compete for team titles.

[scourge165]

22 minutes ago, ionel said:

If recall correctly when Cael was at ISU we were at/going into a pretty good parity state where several teams had the ability to compete for team titles.

Yeah, fair enough. You had a couple years there where Ohio State or Iowa State were just a win or two from winning a NC in '07 and '09...and then Iowa State would likely have been within striking distance with Taylor and the guys who followed Cael to PSU(not sure who else did other than the youngest Sanderson). 

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

The idea of a salary cap at either the NIL level or coach's salary level is a concept that does not apply to college athletics. The purpose of the salary cap Is not to ensure parity  (though parity is an offshoot and what owners want you to focus on). The purpose is to protect profitability by removing the prisoner's dilema from consideration. No owner can attempt to win just by outspending the other owners. It is meant to protect the owners from themselves through colluding to keep costs down. It only works because all parties agree to it. All parties agree because they get compensated for their agreement. Owners through revenue sharing of national TV contracts. Players through mandatory minimum spending by owners.

In college sports there are no owners, there is no revenue sharing, and there are no collective bargaining units. The NCAA does not/cannot control an athlete's NIL earnings. And they never will. Telling athletes what they can earn (zero) is what got them in this predicament in the first place. 

On top of that, the NCAA has gone to court repeatedly to argue athletes are not employees. How then could they argue to have a say in an athlete's earnings?

As for coaches, there is no single authority like the MLB, NFL, etc. that could attempt to normalize compensation across schools or sports. And even if there was, take note that none of the leagues with athlete salary caps have coach salary caps.

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

The idea of a salary cap at either the NIL level or coach's salary level is a concept that does not apply to college athletics. The purpose of the salary cap Is not to ensure parity  (though parity is an offshoot and what owners want you to focus on). The purpose is to protect profitability by removing the prisoner's dilema from consideration. No owner can attempt to win just by outspending the other owners. It is meant to protect the owners from themselves through colluding to keep costs down. It only works because all parties agree to it. All parties agree because they get compensated for their agreement. Owners through revenue sharing of national TV contracts. Players through mandatory minimum spending by owners.

In college sports there are no owners, there is no revenue sharing, and there are no collective bargaining units. The NCAA does not/cannot control an athlete's NIL earnings. And they never will. Telling athletes what they can earn (zero) is what got them in this predicament in the first place. 

On top of that, the NCAA has gone to court repeatedly to argue athletes are not employees. How then could they argue to have a say in an athlete's earnings?

As for coaches, there is no single authority like the MLB, NFL, etc. that could attempt to normalize compensation across schools or sports. And even if there was, take note that none of the leagues with athlete salary caps have coach salary caps.

But what if we put Bob in charge?  I trust Bob to keep it fair.

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 minutes ago, ionel said:

But what if we put Bob in charge?  I trust Bob to keep it fair.

I am not sure how an old viagra spokesman can help.