How should the IOC treat individual Russian and Belarusian athletes at the 2024 Olympics?

[Wrestleknownothing]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:47 PM, Curt Foley said:

Putin's absolute restraint

Plumbing the depths of stupid.

[bnwtwg]

28 minutes ago, LJB said:

think about what you just wrote the next time you call ANY world or olympic gold a mickey mouse title...

with that being said...

i truly appreciate the support from where ever it comes from...

[PencilNeck]

On 4/2/2023 at 9:00 AM, LJB said:

Asterisks are for the normals…

Sometimes one might add an asterisk to a title won by an athlete from a country with a recent history of getting sanctioned for state-sponsored doping. Add in the military actions that Russia has taken, and it isn’t really a tough decision to want to exclude them completely. 

[LJB]

1 hour ago, PencilNeck said:

Sometimes one might add an asterisk to a title won by an athlete from a country with a recent history of getting sanctioned for state-sponsored doping. Add in the military actions that Russia has taken, and it isn’t really a tough decision to want to exclude them completely. 

asterisks are for the normals...

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 4/2/2023 at 2:31 AM, scourge165 said:

The Americans were in the Gold Medal Match in 9 of the 10 weights in Freestyle. We even had a few guys do well in Greco.

It was kinda like having the NCAAs without the B1Gs competing.

I think there was one athlete who won a WC in '83 and one who won a WC in '85. The Schultz brothers.

It was OBVIOUSLY nowhere near the same level of competition. It's still an Olympic Title, but there's a reason most people put an * next to that year.

Talking about the '84 Greco guys: Both did pretty well.

Blatnick defeated World Champ and 8x World/Olympic medalist Johansson of Sweden (who was actually caught doping in 84, losing the medal.)

Fraser defeated Frank Andersson, a three time world champ, who may have been a year or two past his prime. Fraser also had to beat Mike Houck, who won World gold in 85, in the US trials.

Wrestling was significantly diminished by the lack of Eastern Bloc nations, but the Nordic nations were very strong at the time.  Both medalists beat studs.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

16 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

The best in the world weren’t at those championships and the term “Mickey Mouse title” comes from the NBA hostin a covid championship at Disney. Are either of those facts 

This is not accurate.  "Mickey Mouse" predates covid as a derogatory term in sports and especially for certain sports titles.

[scourge165]

38 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

This is not accurate.  "Mickey Mouse" predates covid as a derogatory term in sports and especially for certain sports titles.

When? I'd never heard Mickey Mouse Championship before 2020.

I'd heard "Mickey Mouse organization," or other references...this was all I could find.

And...it's objectively true. The 1984 Olympics didn't have MOST of the top Wrestlers. 14 Eastern Bloc Countries, then Iran, Cuba and other Wrestling powerhouses dropped out. 

 

If you have an Olympic Championships without Russia...or to a lesser extent Belarus, it will VERY clearly be "of inferior quality." So, a Mickey Mouse Championship.

[scourge165]

15 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Plumbing the depths of stupid.

I didn't even see this.

This is somehow getting to the bottom of the "Challenger Deep," and then digging down further.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

14 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

When? I'd never heard Mickey Mouse Championship before 2020.

I'd heard "Mickey Mouse organization," or other references...this was all I could find.

And...it's objectively true. The 1984 Olympics didn't have MOST of the top Wrestlers. 14 Eastern Bloc Countries, then Iran, Cuba and other Wrestling powerhouses dropped out. 

 

If you have an Olympic Championships without Russia...or to a lesser extent Belarus, it will VERY clearly be "of inferior quality." So, a Mickey Mouse Championship.

Right, but has been used in European soccer for decades to disrespect championships.  The world began before 2020.

A little more digging also reveals referees being called "Mickey Mouse refs" and gimmick plays being disrespected as "Mickey Mouse."

And LOL to your etymology source.  Where did that come from?

Edited April 5, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[scourge165]

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Right, but has been used in European soccer for decades to disrespect championships.  The world began before 2020.

A little more digging also reveals referees being called "Mickey Mouse refs" and gimmick plays being disrespected as "Mickey Mouse."

Right...as I said, I'd heard Mickey Mouse organizations or other references before...never heard of "Mickey Mouse Championships." 

And the "World started before 2020?"  Yeah, no shit. Doesn't mean that's now when that particular phrase came along. When the NBA played what people viewed as a DIMINISHED Championship held at Disney World. 

I don't really care though. You take out the athletes Russia and Belarus from Wrestling, it's going to be a...diminished Championship. Not a good enough reason to leave them in, but objectively a inferior Olympic Competition...the definition of "MIckey Mouse Championship."

Doesn't mean there won't be other really good Wrestlers. It does mean...it will be diminished. 

[PencilNeck]

The phrase goes back at least to the 70s, as evidenced by former wrestler, Robin Williams

 

wow, that was prescient. Almost 30 years later the astronomy nerds finally downgraded Pluto.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Right...as I said, I'd heard Mickey Mouse organizations or other references before...never heard of "Mickey Mouse Championships." 

And the "World started before 2020?"  Yeah, no shit. Doesn't mean that's now when that particular phrase came along. When the NBA played what people viewed as a DIMINISHED Championship held at Disney World. 

I don't really care though. You take out the athletes Russia and Belarus from Wrestling, it's going to be a...diminished Championship. Not a good enough reason to leave them in, but objectively a inferior Olympic Competition...the definition of "MIckey Mouse Championship."

Doesn't mean there won't be other really good Wrestlers. It does mean...it will be diminished. 

I don't care, But I posted anyway!

Just an example:

https://m.allfootballapp.com/news/Depth/Liverpools-2001-Mickey-Mouse-Treble-winners-Where-are-they-now/2612827

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Also Iran was no wrestling power in 1984.  Lets not make a big deal about them deciding not to come in 1984.  They had bigger issues to worry about.  

They were not a top 10 team in 83 or 85, and had just one medal in each of those years.

Cuba was almost as bad.

Bulgaria was excellent, however.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, PencilNeck said:

The phrase goes back at least to the 70s, as evidenced by former wrestler, Robin Williams

 

wow, that was prescient. Almost 30 years later the astronomy nerds finally downgraded Pluto.

 

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

Right...as I said, I'd heard Mickey Mouse organizations or other references before...never heard of "Mickey Mouse Championships." 

I'm just saying I'd never heard of the term "Mickey Mouse Championships."
I'd heard other varying phrases...not Mickey Mouse Championships." 
I don't really think it's all that important where it comes from, the sentiment behind it is.

 

 

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Also Iran was no wrestling power in 1984.  Lets not make a big deal about them deciding not to come in 1984.  They had bigger issues to worry about.  

They were not a top 10 team in 83 or 85, and had just one medal in each of those years.

Cuba was almost as bad.

Bulgaria was excellent, however.

Right...the 14 Eastern Bloc Countries that dominated were the primary ones...just pointing out there were other Countries beyond them who boycotted. 

[mspart]

On 4/5/2023 at 8:16 AM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Bulgaria was excellent, however.

yah man, what ever happened to Bulgaria?   They were monsters back in the day.

mspart

[Cherkov]

4 hours ago, mspart said:

yah man, what ever happened to Bulgaria?   They were monsters back in the day.

mspart

 

On 4/5/2023 at 8:56 AM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Talking about the '84 Greco guys: Both did pretty well.

Blatnick defeated World Champ and 8x World/Olympic medalist Johansson of Sweden (who was actually caught doping in 84, losing the medal.)

Fraser defeated Frank Andersson, a three time world champ, who may have been a year or two past his prime. Fraser also had to beat Mike Houck, who won World gold in 85, in the US trials.

Wrestling was significantly diminished by the lack of Eastern Bloc nations, but the Nordic nations were very strong at the time.  Both medalists beat studs.

Blatnick was a mickey mouse win. 

Johansson was a quality wrestler, but he hadn't even medaled at the Euros by 84. If the tournament was full strength, Johansson would have been a medal contender but a shock gold. 

The favorites were Tomov and whoever the soviets sent.  Either Rostorotsky, Evgeni or maybe even Koltschinski. Johansson was winless against a lot of them. Impossible that Blatnick wins, no. None of them were Sadulaev type wrestlers, all took losses in their careers. But winning without the favorites, and just general field depth, isn't covered by a Johansson win. 

Fraser, the two main medalists at that weight were a Soviet and a Bulgarian. Andersson is an even better win than Johansson, but that weight was greatly impacted by the absences as well. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

22 hours ago, Cherkov said:

 

Blatnick was a mickey mouse win. 

Johansson was a quality wrestler, but he hadn't even medaled at the Euros by 84. If the tournament was full strength, Johansson would have been a medal contender but a shock gold. 

The favorites were Tomov and whoever the soviets sent.  Either Rostorotsky, Evgeni or maybe even Koltschinski. Johansson was winless against a lot of them. Impossible that Blatnick wins, no. None of them were Sadulaev type wrestlers, all took losses in their careers. But winning without the favorites, and just general field depth, isn't covered by a Johansson win. 

Fraser, the two main medalists at that weight were a Soviet and a Bulgarian. Andersson is an even better win than Johansson, but that weight was greatly impacted by the absences as well. 

Yes, all I was saying is that the weight class had not been completely cleared out in 84.  A doped Johansson is proof of that.  I never said Blatnick would have won a fully attended games.  Not to mention Blatnick had beat cancer not too long before that!

[scourge165]

58 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Yes, all I was saying is that the weight class had not been completely cleared out in 84.  A doped Johansson is proof of that.  I never said Blatnick would have won a fully attended games.  Not to mention Blatnick had beat cancer not too long before that!

Shit, I didn't know that. 

I just so he had Hodkins Lymphoma. Got that in '82, went through treatment in '83(or at least much of it) and he STILL Wrestled at and Won the Olympics? 

That's impressive. I mean...even had he lost, the drain cancer takes out of you indescribable. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Shit, I didn't know that. 

I just so he had Hodkins Lymphoma. Got that in '82, went through treatment in '83(or at least much of it) and he STILL Wrestled at and Won the Olympics? 

That's impressive. I mean...even had he lost, the drain cancer takes out of you indescribable. 

A mutual friend visited him when he was undergoing treatment.  He told me Jeff was doing backstep drills while he had IVs in him.

[WrestlingRasta]

On 4/1/2023 at 2:30 AM, GreatWhiteNorth said:

This situation is solely the responsible of the Russian government. To blame anyone else is nonsense. Any "punishment" for any athlete is 100% caused by Russia.

Show me a Russian individual athlete who publicly, openly, and whole heartedly condemns the ongoing one-sided Russian attack on Ukraine.

Then, perhaps, an exception could be provided. Until then - they should be NOT allowed to compete.

If the Russian athletes must fight their own country in order to compete - that is how it must be. It is their choice to be Russian citizens, they must live with that choice and the responsibility associated with it. It is the responsibility of nobody else.

They (the athletes) don't have as much "choice" as you might think.   

[de4856]

It’s a tough subject, the individual wrestler has no say in what his or her government did or does. So it’s unfortunate for the individual. However Putin along with assistance from Belarus has invaded Ukraine. Putin and the leader of Belarus should be held accountable. But I guess the question is, what kind of accountability should that be? Difficult for me to answer, I would say that at the very minimum that they should not be able to compete under their national flag. 
I have been following international wrestling since Dan Gable won his Gold medal in 1972. And I am really tired of all the crap that the Russians and some of these other countries have pulled, and I’m to the point that maybe Russia and their state sponsored doping as well as everything else, that they should get banned, for a decade or so. 

[mspart]

5 hours ago, de4856 said:

I have been following international wrestling since Dan Gable won his Gold medal in 1972. And I am really tired of all the crap that the Russians and some of these other countries have pulled, and I’m to the point that maybe Russia and their state sponsored doping as well as everything else, that they should get banned, for a decade or so. 

de,

I don't disagree, with you on this point.  But if an individual Russian can show they didn't dope and aren't doping, would you agree that a remedy should be available for them?  I suppose the answer is that they don't compete for Russia but for some other made up entity's flag.   But I would expect no more than half participation if the doping is that prevalent in Russia. 

 mspart

[gimpeltf]

1 hour ago, mspart said:

de,

I don't disagree, with you on this point.  But if an individual Russian can show they didn't dope and aren't doping, would you agree that a remedy should be available for them?  I suppose the answer is that they don't compete for Russia but for some other made up entity's flag.   But I would expect no more than half participation if the doping is that prevalent in Russia. 

 mspart

Tough call. Wasn't the figure skater supposed to be clean?

[GreatWhiteNorth]

9 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

They (the athletes) don't have as much "choice" as you might think.   

I understand that. I think most of us do.

It is a difficult thing to put in perspective. The argument that "the government is the problem, not the athletes" is problematic, because the athletes are representing their country and its government in competition. Part of their role is to bring success and glory to their country and leaders.

The country, its people, its government, and its athletes are all inextricably bound together. A government cannot act without having to answer to its people to some degree. An athlete cannot win without bringing glory to their country to some degree. And so on...

I would very much like to see a path that would allow Russian wrestlers to compete. I just don't see one.