nhs67 Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 1 minute ago, LJB said: interestingly enough, that is not what happens in his international matches... It is cringy in Folkstyle because against a certain tier guy and up all he tries is the ole sumo-push. Very little effort at anything else. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, nhs67 said: It is cringy in Folkstyle because against a certain tier guy and up all he tries is the ole sumo-push. Very little effort at anything else. and against those that know how to wrestle that is not very effective... wrestling improves exponentially when you can not just back out of bounds for safety... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 1 minute ago, LJB said: wrestling improves exponentially when you can not just back out of bounds for safety... then maybe we should first have this rule at kid club level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 4 minutes ago, ionel said: then maybe we should first have this rule at kid club level? why first? we can already see how much better wrestling is with a pushout... we can all go back and watch how it improved dramatically when they introduced it internationally... this is not just conjecture or theorizing... we can actually see how much better wrestling got after he could not just back up into the parking lot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 16 minutes ago, LJB said: why first? Because you said it "improves exponentially" thus there'd be more improvement if we start first at youngest level. Personally I'd like to see Wkn's data on the subject. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 1 hour ago, 1032004 said: I know FRL discussed on a prior episode that it just seems odd that you earn 4x as much for a fall in the consolations as simply winning the match, and I'd agree. But I think they've also theorized about scoring more in the consolations than the championship bracket, which I'm not sure about. Do you have the breakdown of "middle rounds" in the above? I would guess the championship bracket gradually declines and would be curious if the consolation does as well. Right now the 3rd place finisher can outscore the champion in a tournament format. I believe the proposed rule change would take this out of the equation. For instance, Hendrickson outscored a couple of champions this year due to his pins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le duke Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 On the other end, Starocci is going to lose so many matches by being stalled out on top.I’m guessing he’ll be OK. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 10 minutes ago, Le duke said: I’m guessing he’ll be OK. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Possibly. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 12 minutes ago, ionel said: Because you said it "improves exponentially" thus there'd be more improvement if we start first at youngest level. Personally I'd like to see Wkn's data on the subject. it should be instituted at all ages immediately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 There’s already a push out rule - it’s called stalling. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHROMEBIRD Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 First rule they need to fix is the challenge and video review process. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMO2 Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said: Headgear and singlets should be optional. Aren't singlets still optional? Edited March 30, 2023 by KCMO2 Changed statement to question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le duke Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 Aren't singlets still optional? See: ASU this season, Maryland last season.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouts Honor Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 (edited) stalling still occurs in freestyle, push out or not wrestling has gotten better? im not sure... i still think guys just go to their knees and guys with a hi single up just push the guy out.. no attempt to finish... i have always enjoyed wrestling. free and folk... greco... a little.. if you get the right guys i dont see a problem with what we have. i really love edge wrestling but yeah.. i get the whole tired arguments thing... i keep hearing how it will make it better and I dont believe it's so it's like a kids game... you are off the base, your it!! and what did he really do even the controlling the middle argument is ... bleh... so what... you are stronger than the other guy... did you attempt anything? Edited March 30, 2023 by Scouts Honor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 i get anyone who is "less than" would hate a push out... that would eliminate 93% of their wrestling strategy right off the top... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Gus said: Right now the 3rd place finisher can outscore the champion in a tournament format. I believe the proposed rule change would take this out of the equation. For instance, Hendrickson outscored a couple of champions this year due to his pins. Hendrickson didn’t enter the consolations till after the semifinals. He had two matches there and pinned both. He had one fall and two MDs in the champ div. He’s a bonus machine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Gus said: Right now the 3rd place finisher can outscore the champion in a tournament format. I believe the proposed rule change would take this out of the equation. For instance, Hendrickson outscored a couple of champions this year due to his pins. I love the fact that Hendrickson scored more (21.5) than two champs (O'Connor and Bonaccorsi, 21) and all of the runners up. It would be a shame to change a rule on what I assume is a rare occurrence. (It happened in 2021 also with Mason Parris outscoring 7 champs and Jaydin Eierman outscoring 3, but both were runners up and did all their damage on the front side). Which raises the question, what is the actual proposed change? Do you know? I do not. 3 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 5 hours ago, Offthemat said: There’s already a push out rule - it’s called stalling. Stepout removes the subjectivity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 6 hours ago, LJB said: how i do love the same tired arguments every year... Well now it seems there’s actually a chance it might change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 3 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: I love the fact that Hendrickson scored more (21.5) than two champs (O'Connor and Bonaccorsi, 21) and all of the runners up. It would be a shame to change a rule on what I assume is a rare occurrence. (It happened in 2021 also with Mason Parris outscoring 7 champs and Jaydin Eierman outscoring 3, but both were runners up and did all their damage on the front side). Which raises the question, what is the actual proposed change? Do you know? I do not. D3 (obviously different quality of wrestling than D1, but still governed by the same rules) had a guy wbf in pig tail, then won next match by fall, then lose in round of 16 by fall. Scored 4 more pins to take third. NCAA record 6 total pins. He may have outscored almost all the champs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 5 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: D3 (obviously different quality of wrestling than D1, but still governed by the same rules) had a guy wbf in pig tail, then won next match by fall, then lose in round of 16 by fall. Scored 4 more pins to take third. NCAA record 6 total pins. He may have outscored almost all the champs? Yes, please, and thank you. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveira Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 10 hours ago, Dogbone said: It's crazy to me that this is a rule that needs to be added.... 100% Yes! I think folk style will be better with a pushout rule, ideally TD would be changed to 3 points and pushout point = 1 to encourage guys to finish the single leg as opposed to just running guys out of bounds but you have to start somewhere. I don't think it would be terrible if it was both feet out (for pushout point) either but willing to see how whatever gets implemented plays out. Part of this is my complaint. It needs a rule because they added the silly no need to pin rule…. Because trying for a riding time point is “scoring”. How many of the last few rule changes went over well? The sport was fine. Quit tinkering with the rules. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveira Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 7 hours ago, LJB said: why first? we can already see how much better wrestling is with a pushout... we can all go back and watch how it improved dramatically when they introduced it internationally... this is not just conjecture or theorizing... we can actually see how much better wrestling got after he could not just back up into the parking lot... This is sooooo hard to tell. Given the sheer lack of US fans watching or attending freestyle events. when the us open goes down compare ncaa national championship attendance vs the open. A few things. 1) it will not be during March madness. No excuses there. 2) there will be like a ton of ncaa champs…. The most at any tourney based in the us I would bet. 3) it’s for a spot in the final x to compete for an Olympic spot. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 7 hours ago, TylerDurden said: RE: pushout points. I have my doubts about this. If a guy grabs a collar tie, blocks and drives his opponent out of bounds...did he really do anything? This strategy is already employed by many wrestlers to generate a stall call. I'd argue the guy pushing their opponent out is stalling, i.e., not wrestling. Think about how this works in freestyle...a guy is close to the edge and his opponent pushes him and gets a point for...pushing...unless he's grounded. I don't like it in FS either. I think it was a well-intended rule to keep action going, but in its application, it is silly. There are some legitimate times where a guy is backing straight out to avoid a certain position, double underhooks, for instance. Those should be called stalling. I seems that the application of the rule makes it so that the official must call a stall for "backing" off the mat, even if they were pushed off or it's clear the wrestler being pushed is making an attempt to stay in the circle. Perhaps this is a rule that needs clarification and application amendments, not a rewrite to reward the behavior that seems to go against the spirit of the rule. If a guy is actually avoiding wrestling, call stalling. Blocking and pushing is in fact stalling. I hate watching that. It's...I don't wanna pick on Iowa, but it's Brands/Marinelli too much. Some of the best, most exciting, tournament changing Wrestling happens on the edge. Please do NOT add a pushout. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 21 hours ago, 1032004 said: Discussed on FRL today. Some of the key ones and my thoughts: 1. No longer requiring headgear. Dislike. It should be required in practices 2. Changing first MFF to a loss. I like it. 3. Reducing the scoring for consolation bracket (no specifics though). I like it. 4. Offensive wrestler must work for a fall/near fall. YES YES YES 5. One point pushout rule. I think I like it, but not sure. 1-Fine, you don't need to require it during College Wresteling I guess. It just seems stupid. I just saw a thread on Reddit from a JHS Wrestler asking how to get Cauliflower. He's been Wrestling for a couple years, he doesn't wear headgear and...he does something else to try and get it. See how much he'll like it when you've gotta start draining that shit at home and the it gets thicker and thicker and you need to get it pealed and cleaned and then you're Wrestling with cotton stitched into your ear(I may be just old...IDK if that's still what they do, but it hurt like a bitch). I'd probably advocate for keeping headgear just because it's such a minor thing and I think it's more likely to influence kids to not wear headgear and they'll regret it(not that this is a great reason for that rule). 2-I like that. I think it'll result in some guys who get legitimately hurt, but it's being used WAAAY too much to avoid matches for seeding. If for nothing else, it doesn't have to go on your official record, but count it as a loss for seeding(at the VERY least). 3-Why are we diminishing the importance of Wrestling back for team points? Not a fan of that at all. This is what keeps guys invested after heartbreaking losses(usually). 4-Sure. I'm not sure how much of a difference that's going to make, but yes. This one makes complete sense. 5-NO-NO-NO-NO. This is going to drastically change the style of Wrestling, the TDs on the edge. It's just a silly idea IMO. This isn't Freestyle and I don't like it in Freestyle. Finish the shot. It's also already muddied given the grounded rules...just not a fan of this in any way at the College level in particular. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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