Best ever at each weight class

[scourge165]

6 hours ago, 11986 said:

I like these discussions in that I learn something or am reminded how good some guys were that I had forgotten about. Generally speaking I think it’s silly to argue about these things, it’s all hypothetical unless guys actually wrestled each other.  Regarding Ed Banach, big fan from way back. I’ll say this though for consideration on him being the choice at 197. He only wrestled 1 year at the equivalent weight 190, and lost 3 x that year to Mike Mann from Iowa State. He did beat Mann 4-3 in the finals. 

I agree...completely. It's just fun to make lists.

And I put Snyder at '97...a weight he wrestled 1 year and the year he didn't win it.

But it's about getting the 10 best guys into the lineup for me. It's really just fun bullshitting, it's not like any of these guys are diminished because Scourge or 11986 don't list him!

[lu_alum]

13 hours ago, lu1979 said:

After further thought I will change 157 to Lee Kemp

 

Kemp's modern weight class would be 165.  He was a 150 as a frosh, moving up to 158 for this three championship seasons.

[Zahnarzt]

4 hours ago, scourge165 said:

But it's about getting the 10 best guys into the lineup for me. 

This is why I had Retherford at 141, but the point brought up about him being a better version of himself at 149 is obviously valid. 

[Perry]

125: abas 

133: eutake 

141: steiber 

149: retherford 

157: dake

165: Taylor

174: Askren 

184: Sanderson 

197: cox

285: steveson

[Paul158]

16 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Some of these lists are just capital 'S' Stoopid.

Retherford the best 141lber?  Guy placed 5th the only year he wrestled 141.

Dake is the best 141lber?  He won the NCAA tournament but he wasn't even the best 141lber in his conference that year.

Snyder the best 197lber?  He got decked in the finals the only year he wrestled 197lbs.

Yianni the best 149lber?  Are you talking his Junior season version, because he lost this year.

Yes Snyder is  our best 197.  He did get pinned by a 5th year senior . Snyder was a true freshman. It was a O to 0 match. Snyder made one slight mistake and it cost him the match. But then during the summer at the trials he beats Olympic Champ Jake Varner. Later that summer he wrestles in the World Championships at the age of 19 and beats the defending Word Champion from Russia for the Gold Medal. Becoming the  youngest American to win a world Gold Medal. He then elects to wrestle heavyweight in college because NCAA does not have a 212 pound weight .He was giving up 60 to 70 pounds to the bigger heavyweights . Then he went Gold NCAA and Gold OLYmpics his sophomore year. Gold NCAA and Gold World his Junior year.NCAA  Gold and  Silver World his Senior year. He never took a redshirt or an Olympic year off.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, Paul158 said:

Yes Snyder is  our best 197.  He did get pinned by a 5th year senior . Snyder was a true freshman. It was a O to 0 match. Snyder made one slight mistake and it cost him the match. But then during the summer at the trials he beats Olympic Champ Jake Varner. Later that summer he wrestles in the World Championships at the age of 19 and beats the defending Word Champion from Russia for the Gold Medal. Becoming the  youngest American to win a world Gold Medal. He then elects to wrestle heavyweight in college because NCAA does not have a 212 pound weight .He was giving up 60 to 70 pounds to the bigger heavyweights . Then he went Gold NCAA and Gold OLYmpics his sophomore year. Gold NCAA and Gold World his Junior year.NCAA  Gold and  Silver World his Senior year. He never took a redshirt or an Olympic year off.

Are we talking about our best 97 KG (~213lbs) Freestyle wrestler or our best 197lbs (~89 KG) Folkstyle wrestler?

The 197lb Senior version of Cael Sanderson would have beaten him soundly at Folkstyle and he wad a 184lber.  Hell even now DT says that Cael owns the room even with Snyder there.

You also understand that the only 197lb version of Snyder didn't just lose a fluke pin to Gadson right?  He lost to him during the regular season as well as losing to Burak of Iowa in the dual and McIntosh of Penn State at B1Gs.

So the 197lb version of Snyder that is our best 197lber ever lost four times the season he was the 'best' and didn't win either marquee tournaments he participated in (B1Gs/NCAAs).

Snyder isn't our best 197lber ever.

[Matthew Burns]

18 hours ago, Wrestej said:

Yes, but he did compete for four years.

Relevant in terms of my statement about his pins.

 

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, Paul158 said:

Yes Snyder is  our best 197.  He did get pinned by a 5th year senior . Snyder was a true freshman. It was a O to 0 match. Snyder made one slight mistake and it cost him the match. But then during the summer at the trials he beats Olympic Champ Jake Varner. Later that summer he wrestles in the World Championships at the age of 19 and beats the defending Word Champion from Russia for the Gold Medal. Becoming the  youngest American to win a world Gold Medal. He then elects to wrestle heavyweight in college because NCAA does not have a 212 pound weight .He was giving up 60 to 70 pounds to the bigger heavyweights . Then he went Gold NCAA and Gold OLYmpics his sophomore year. Gold NCAA and Gold World his Junior year.NCAA  Gold and  Silver World his Senior year. He never took a redshirt or an Olympic year off.

Agreed. He was a tweener who Wrestled HWT because he was more focused on Wrestling Freestyle. Imagine having to cut down to ~212 while wrestling HWT?

I don't think it was a big cut, but at the same time, he'd probably have gained weight instead of having to stay at the lowest range for HWT...whereas if he wasn't Wrestling Freestyle, he likely cuts down to 197. 

So yeah, I'll put him at 197 and Cael at 184...and calling it "capital 'S' Stoopid," is just...silly.

Again, we're not voting for the HOF or some quantifiable award. These are just simply the best 10 Wrestlers at weights people wrestled. I'm pretty confident Snyder could have Wrestled 197 3 more years and dominated the way he dominated...the WORLD while he was in College(moreso as arguably the greatest Wrestler ever in Freestyle moved up to his weight class). 

 

[Wrestej]

1 hour ago, Matthew Burns said:

Relevant in terms of my statement about his pins.

 

You said he only had 3 years of eligibility.  He had 4.  His total number of pins were for four years of competition.  Yes he had 19 more than Ben.  

[Paul158]

6 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Agreed. He was a tweener who Wrestled HWT because he was more focused on Wrestling Freestyle. Imagine having to cut down to ~212 while wrestling HWT?

I don't think it was a big cut, but at the same time, he'd probably have gained weight instead of having to stay at the lowest range for HWT...whereas if he wasn't Wrestling Freestyle, he likely cuts down to 197. 

So yeah, I'll put him at 197 and Cael at 184...and calling it "capital 'S' Stoopid," is just...silly.

Again, we're not voting for the HOF or some quantifiable award. These are just simply the best 10 Wrestlers at weights people wrestled. I'm pretty confident Snyder could have Wrestled 197 3 more years and dominated the way he dominated...the WORLD while he was in College(moreso as arguably the greatest Wrestler ever in Freestyle moved up to his weight class). 

 

Thanks. You  did an excellent job of explaining what I was trying to say. . That he did this without a redshirt or a Olympic shirt is pretty amazing. He was only !9 when he beat the reigning Olympic Champion and the reigning World Champion and the reigning NCAA Champion. All within a 4 month period.

[Matthew Burns]

53 minutes ago, Wrestej said:

You said he only had 3 years of eligibility.  He had 4.  His total number of pins were for four years of competition.  Yes he had 19 more than Ben.  

Concur.

Four years of competition. 

Shut out of one post season per transfer rules. I often incorrectly just chalk that up to the "freshman didn't compete" era. Off by a few years on that.

[lu_alum]

Dake is the best 141lber?  He won the NCAA tournament but he wasn't even the best 141lber in his conference that year.

Dake (137-4 career) won an EIWA title at 141 as a frosh in 2010, with two non-conference losses that season (Reece Humphrey and Zack Bailey at the CKLV).

His other losses were during the 2011-12 season to Donnie Vinson (December dual) and Kevin LeValley (2011 EIWA final).


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[Ohio Elite]

Dustin Schlatter true freshman year at 149 stomped Burroughs like 3 times.

[scourge165]

26 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

Dake (137-4 career) won an EIWA title at 141 as a frosh in 2010, with two non-conference losses that season (Reece Humphrey and Zack Bailey at the CKLV).

His other losses were during the 2011-12 season to Donnie Vinson (December dual) and Kevin LeValley (2011 EIWA final).


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Well...Aaron Brooks wasn't even the best 184 in his own conference this year. He lost to Marcus Coleman. 

Hell, for that matter, he wasn't the best last year either.

Christ...now that I think about it, Aaron Brooks has only been the best in his conference ONE TIME!!! 3 of 4 years, the 3X NATIONAL CHAMP hasn't been the best in the B1G!

Or, maybe that's just kinda silly and winning the NC is more important than losing a conference match. Who's really to say which Wrestlers value more? Conference Titles or National Titles. It's like Sophies Choice. Impossible decision!

[Le duke]

Well...Aaron Brooks wasn't even the best 184 in his own conference this year. He lost to Marcus Coleman. 
Hell, for that matter, he wasn't the best last year either.

Christ...now that I think about it, Aaron Brooks has only been the best in his conference ONE TIME!!! 3 of 4 years, the 3X NATIONAL CHAMP hasn't been the best in the B1G!

Or, maybe that's just kinda silly and winning the NC is more important than losing a conference match. Who's really to say which Wrestlers value more? Conference Titles or National Titles. It's like Sophies Choice. Impossible decision!

You know that Coleman goes to Iowa State and Brooks is a 3x B1G champ, right?


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[nhs67]

45 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

Dake (137-4 career) won an EIWA title at 141 as a frosh in 2010, with two non-conference losses that season (Reece Humphrey and Zack Bailey at the CKLV).

His other losses were during the 2011-12 season to Donnie Vinson (December dual) and Kevin LeValley (2011 EIWA final).


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I misremembered the Levalley loss.

Either way he lost.

14 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Well...Aaron Brooks wasn't even the best 184 in his own conference this year. He lost to Marcus Coleman. 

Hell, for that matter, he wasn't the best last year either.

Christ...now that I think about it, Aaron Brooks has only been the best in his conference ONE TIME!!! 3 of 4 years, the 3X NATIONAL CHAMP hasn't been the best in the B1G!

Or, maybe that's just kinda silly and winning the NC is more important than losing a conference match. Who's really to say which Wrestlers value more? Conference Titles or National Titles. It's like Sophies Choice. Impossible decision!

3 of 4 years he won B1Gs.  He does have one in-conference loss from 2020 that he did avenge at B1Gs via an emphatic four minute fall.

[scourge165]

4 minutes ago, Ohio Elite said:

Dustin Schlatter true freshman year at 149 stomped Burroughs like 3 times.

Dustin Schlatter was an outstanding Wrestler. Also, not sure he "stomped him." He lost 3-2, 9-6 and 2-1. And Schlatter was one of the top prospects to come out in a LOONG time. And at least one of those, the 2-1 win was not Schlatter's Freshmen year. Incidentally, this was also Burroughs Freshmen year. 

He also came back in 2008, lost to Brent Metcalf in the Semi's(another guy with ONE loss in his career and someone who likely would have won a 3rd Title with today's transfer rules) and Wrestled back to 3rd. Dustin Schlatter took 7th in that weight. 

Justin Burroughs didn't really...develop until his Jr year though, so...with respect, so what? He was also winning World Titles while he was in College.

 

You're not going to make a strong argument with any of these guys by trying to trash another guy...and exaggerating their "failures," only looks weaker.

 

[scourge165]

11 minutes ago, Le duke said:

You know that Coleman goes to Iowa State and Brooks is a 3x B1G champ, right?


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My bad. So twice then he wasn't even the best Wrestler in his own conference. 

 

Edit-To be clear, I think that's a ridiculous argument and it should be obvious I was being sarcastic. Taking a loss to someone in your own conference(which Brooks has done twice, not three times as you pointed out) doesn't matter if you win a National Championship. 

He's lost to Ventz and Amine.

Edited March 30, 2023 by scourge165

[scourge165]

5 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I misremembered the Levalley loss.

Either way he lost.

3 of 4 years he won B1Gs.  He does have one in-conference loss from 2020 that he did avenge at B1Gs via an emphatic four minute fall.

You don't think Dake avenged his loss with an emphatic NCAA Title as a Freshmen?

[nhs67]

25 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

You don't think Dake avenged his loss with an emphatic NCAA Title as a Freshmen?

When did he avenge the Bailey loss?

29 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

My bad. So twice then he wasn't even the best Wrestler in his own conference. 

 

Edit-To be clear, I think that's a ridiculous argument and it should be obvious I was being sarcastic. Taking a loss to someone in your own conference(which Brooks has done twice, not three times as you pointed out) doesn't matter if you win a National Championship. 

He's lost to Ventz and Amine.

So you're saying a 2 loss Frosh Dake is better than Senior season Steiber?  You trying to die on that hill or something?

Also, why you bringing Brooks in to this?  He isn't our best 184lber ever either.  I agree with you there, even if your facts are off.  3x B1G champ.

Edited March 30, 2023 by nhs67

[scourge165]

11 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

When did he avenge the Bailey loss?

So you're saying a 2 loss Frosh Dake is better than Senior season Steiber?  You trying to die on that hill or something?

Also, why you bringing Brooks in to this?  He isn't our best 184lber ever either.  I agree with you there, even if your facts are off.  3x B1G champ.

LOL...where'd I say this?

No, I'm saying NATIONAL Title trumps losing a match in your conference.

Never said anything about Freshmen Dake vs Sr Stieber. I think I've been pretty clear about my position.

 

And why am I bringing Brooks into this? To try and articulate the absurdity of making the argument that if you lose a match within your conference, but then win the NATIONAL TITLE, saying you "weren't even the best in your conference," is pretty silly and nonsensical. 

There's no "hill to die on," here bud. This is a SUBJECTIVE discussion about what people believe is the best lineup ever. It's really not much deeper than that. Same thing as I said yesterday in this thread. 

19 hours ago, scourge165 said:

But it's about getting the 10 best guys into the lineup for me.

So that be Dake for me. Again, this isn't Culps Hill, it ain't that important, and nobody is dying. Just making poorly thought out arguments.

[nhs67]

36 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

LOL...where'd I say this?

No, I'm saying NATIONAL Title trumps losing a match in your conference.

Never said anything about Freshmen Dake vs Sr Stieber. I think I've been pretty clear about my position.

 

And why am I bringing Brooks into this? To try and articulate the absurdity of making the argument that if you lose a match within your conference, but then win the NATIONAL TITLE, saying you "weren't even the best in your conference," is pretty silly and nonsensical. 

There's no "hill to die on," here bud. This is a SUBJECTIVE discussion about what people believe is the best lineup ever. It's really not much deeper than that. Same thing as I said yesterday in this thread. 

So that be Dake for me. Again, this isn't Culps Hill, it ain't that important, and nobody is dying. Just making poorly thought out arguments.

I hear what you are saying then.  I am saying you cannot give 141lb Dake credit for what happened later in his career.

141lb Dake grew so much physically, technically, and mentally by the time he was at 165lbs.  To say the 165lb version is the 141lb GOAT is preposterous.

If this was March 30th, 2010 and you made your list and you included 141lb Dake the entire board is laughing you out the door and I am telling you that you are two days early, bud.

An example:  I believe the 2020 version of Spencer Lee is the best 125lber we have ever seen.  I would also make a case that the 2021 pre-injury might be there, too, but I won't because I am taking the entire season in to account.

[scourge165]

1 minute ago, nhs67 said:

I hear what you are saying then.  I am saying you cannot give 141lb Dake credit for what happened later in his career.

141lb Dake grew so much physically, technically, and mentally by the time he was at 165lbs.  To say the 165lb version is the 141lb GOAT is preposterous.

If this was March 30th, 2010 and you made your list and you included 141lb Dake the entire board is laughing you out the door and I am telling you that you are two days early, bud.

An example:  I believe the 2020 version of Spencer Lee is the best 125lber we have ever seen.  I would also make a case that the 2021 pre-injury might be there, too, but I won't because I am taking the entire season in to account.

But it's NOT March 30th 2010, it's 2023, I know what Dake accomplished and I can do that...I did do that.

And if YOU believe that Lee's the best 125 of all time, then...put him on your list

I won't nit-pick it by pointing out that he'd lost 3 times each of the two prior seasons. Lee was dominant. You're approaching this as though it has some gravity and it does not. It's just a list...again, of the 10 best Wrestlers and we're trying to fill them into one lineup.

 

[nhs67]

7 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

But it's NOT March 30th 2010, it's 2023, I know what Dake accomplished and I can do that...I did do that.

And if YOU believe that Lee's the best 125 of all time, then...put him on your list

I won't nit-pick it by pointing out that he'd lost 3 times each of the two prior seasons. Lee was dominant. You're approaching this as though it has some gravity and it does not. It's just a list...again, of the 10 best Wrestlers and we're trying to fill them into one lineup.

 

This is entirely different than listing the best at the weight class.

Under this scenario, I concede.

[neweruser69]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

I hear what you are saying then.  I am saying you cannot give 141lb Dake credit for what happened later in his career.

141lb Dake grew so much physically, technically, and mentally by the time he was at 165lbs.  To say the 165lb version is the 141lb GOAT is preposterous.

If this was March 30th, 2010 and you made your list and you included 141lb Dake the entire board is laughing you out the door and I am telling you that you are two days early, bud.

An example:  I believe the 2020 version of Spencer Lee is the best 125lber we have ever seen.  I would also make a case that the 2021 pre-injury might be there, too, but I won't because I am taking the entire season in to account.

Not for nothing, but give me Freshman 141 Dake over Senior Steiber. 

That isn't the greatest matchup for logie bear. Dake was an absolute powerhouse at 141 with freakish athleticism. 

I recall vividly rooting for Reece Humphrey at the time too and wondering who the hell this true freshman was. Probably Dake's closest match at the NCAAs.