Best ever at each weight class

[KCMO2]

3 minutes ago, Le duke said:

In a third rate conference with plenty of bums from the Southwest Missouri State Open sprinkled in there.

He also lost to Pendleton what, 6 times?


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They were in the Big 12 then, not the MAC.  He lost to Pendleton his freshman and sophomore years.  Undefeated and completely dominant his last 2 years, 87 wins in a row, 2 Hodges.  Absolutely embarrassed Herbert in the finals his junior year.  You need to catch a clue.

[Wrestej]

1 minute ago, Le duke said:

In a third rate conference with plenty of bums from the Southwest Missouri State Open sprinkled in there.

He also lost to Pendleton what, 6 times?


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91 Pins (3rd most ever)  4X Finalist. 2X Champ (lost to Pendleton other 2).  2X Hodge.  Yes that looks like a résumé who took on a lot of fish.

[Le duke]

When DT and Ruth wrestled it showed me that Ruth couldn't handle elite scrambling.
Askren would wipe the floor with him.

Askren lost 6 times to Pendleton, who isn’t in the same universe as DT.


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[Gus]

10 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Askren lost 6 times to Pendleton, who isn’t in the same universe as DT.


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We all know that Askren jumped levels his last two years and was great. His dismantling of Jake Herbert was a work of art. Both Askren and Ruth were better folkstyle wrestlers than freestyle. Ruth did not only lose to DT in freestyle, he lost to Clayton Foster, Keith Gavin, Jake Herbert..

[Fudge Tunnel]

45 minutes ago, Le duke said:

He’d get beaten soundly by Ed Ruth.


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The same was said on Themat forums in '06 regarding Jake Herbert. 

Result ---> 14-2, Askren

[fishbane]

8 minutes ago, Gus said:

We all know that Askren jumped levels his last two years and was great. His dismantling of Jake Herbert was a work of art. Both Askren and Ruth were better folkstyle wrestlers than freestyle. Ruth did not only lose to DT in freestyle, he lost to Clayton Foster, Keith Gavin, Jake Herbert..

I think the jump happened sometime his freshman year followed by steady improvement and he just never passed Pendleton.  Regardless of when the jump occured, he never jumped Pendleton.  Pendleton beat him in freestyle after Askren graduated too.

Askren made a single World/Olympic team (2008 Olympics) which was a year after he graduated.  Ruth made a single World/Olympic team (2014 Worlds) which was the same year he graduated.  Between the two I'd pick Ruth, but Askren has the better accomplishments strictly at 174.

Since the weights changed there has been 1 3x 174lb champ (Starocci), 4-2x champs (Valencia, Perry, Askren, Pendleton) and 2-3x champs that won a single title at 174 before moving up to win two more (Ruth and Greg Jones).  I think the only wrestler to compete in the postseason at 174 post the weight change was Jake Herbert (Silver Worlds 2009) but he never won a title at 174.  Joe Williams won a title at 167 in 1998 which was essentially the same weight class.  I think that was the year 7lb allowances were given and they formally changed the weights the next season.  He has a pair of world bronze.  Surprised no one picked Valencia, but Starocci is probably the pick.

[mspart]

1 hour ago, Dark Energy said:

Burroughs not being on your lists = nonsense.  World gold coming out of senior year and kept Dake and Taylor off the national team shortly after.  
 

This is all true of course but after college.   I think the topic here is college hammers, not after college hammers.   Burroughs would certainly be high on the latter list. 

mspart

[Dark Energy]

6 minutes ago, mspart said:

This is all true of course but after college.   I think the topic here is college hammers, not after college hammers.   Burroughs would certainly be high on the latter list. 

mspart

The senior world gold was right after last college season.  Shows how freaking big his hammer was as a senior.  

[Matthew Burns]

3 hours ago, Wrestej said:

91 pins.  Enough said.

109 dwarfs that. 

Would you make a similar argument for Wade Schalles? He is basically Ben Askren 1.0 with 20 percent more pins back in 3 year eligibility phase.

[Iwrite]

Ever heard of Dan Hodge? And thanks to Gus for including Dan Gable. His junior year he was 31-0 with 29 pins, and he set the all-time NCAA record with 24 pins in a row. between his junior and senior years. During his college career, he defeated 5 NCAA champions, including three 2-timers! He was 181-1 over seven years of high shcool and college. And Gray Simons belongs on any all-time college list, winning 7 collegiate titles (4 NAIA and 3 NCAA) and being OW six times.

.

 

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, lu1979 said:

125 - S Abas

133 - Yojiro Uetake

141 - Gable(the OG...original G....yeah, lame joke).

149 - Yianni

157 - Pat Smith

165 - Kyle Dake

174 - Mark Schultz

184 - Cael

197 - Kyle Snyder(Banach and Snyder have similar CVs, but Snyder winning 

Hvwt - Gable

I like that list. It's GOTTA be the best against the competition you face, how you fared against your peers...otherwise you go back and look at...Banach for example and compare him to '97 pounders now and the technique just does not compare. But, 1/1/2/1 kinda says it all! 

 

I like Abas as 125. He was just incredible on his feet and I BELIEVE all of his losses were to Jurgens from Iowa(twice as a Freshmen in the NCAAs) and then to 3X Guerrero who he bumped up to Wrestle.

It's impossible for me to have an educated opinion on Uetake as all I can do is read about his accomplishments(and they are incredible). IF this were my list, I might have Randy Lewis on the list. 2/1/1/7 and then a legit dislocated elbow his Sr year so he basically wrestled with one arm. If memory serves(from an old Coach) he dislocated it just a few weeks before the NCAAs. He was also missing a major pec muscle. You can see it in his freestyle Wrestling(where he battled John Smith).

Though, again, pretty impossible to argue against a guy who won 3 titles in 3 tournaments and 2 Olympics, one his Soph year(his first year allowed to Wrestle). So won't argue with that.

The only changes I'd make is put Gable in there at 141. He was dominant in College and there's a reason why people consider Larry Owings win as the biggest upset ever. Just one loss ever and then Snyder in there at 197. If we're trying to get the best ever into the lineup, I'd throw him in. He was a WC and an Olympic Champ while in College.

 

Another thing I'd say...before they change the rules, dudes were just bigger. Now Schultz goes up a weight for this but looks like a massive '77(and again, that was him going up, he could have wrestled '67). He looks like a big '84. But Joe Williams wrestling 158, he'd be a '74 pounder now I think. At LEAST a '65. The stories about how much weight they cut are incredible(ly stupid). One reason the 2 hour weigh-ins...much as everyone participating hates them, very good for this sport.

 

But watch this. Two all-time legends. The athleticism. They don't move like Aaron Brooks and they don't hit those shots and scramble, but it's like all sports. It evolves. Most started maybe wrestling a couple months in Middle School in HS for a year or two before going into HS, then HS(Schultz never won a Tournament before winning the California State Tournament as a Sr). 

Anyway, they certainly have the athleticism and are incredible to watch. Watch Schultz do that backflip after this match.

 

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, lu1979 said:

After further thought I will change 157 to Lee Kemp

 

Fair enough.

I HATE how these threads invariably turn into why someone SHOULDN'T be on the list when we're talking about the all-time greats. Lee Kemp? Cool. He was an incredible Wrestler. If you make it how Pat Smith won weak weight classes and wouldn't be able to touch Lee Kemp...that's just insulting to these Wrestlers...the best of the best(obviously YOU'RE not doing that).

People who think Askren belongs on there? I get that. I don't personally agree, but it's impossible to question what he did. It's more impressive to me HOW he did it. He knew he wasn't naturally gifted like Ed Ruth. He outworked people to get there, he was a Wrestling savant. He was creative. He was sticking people with cradles and with arm bars. So people started stalling. So he went to that(and I'm loathed to use these terms for moves) but the "assassin" because guys couldn't defend that as well.

I still like your choice of Schultz, but different fan bases and people are going to have different lists. 

 

I don't get up on a soap box often...but if I ever were to, it'd be on this one, pointing out Ed Ruth's failings to advocate for another Wrestler. I have the same issue in other sports. 

[mspart]

That is a great match.   That was quite the show.   All because Schultz didn't think it was right that someone should have the chance for 4 NCAA titles. 

mspart

[Wrestej]

42 minutes ago, Matthew Burns said:

109 dwarfs that. 

Would you make a similar argument for Wade Schalles? He is basically Ben Askren 1.0 with 20 percent more pins back in 3 year eligibility phase.

Yes

[scourge165]

2 minutes ago, mspart said:

That is a great match.   That was quite the show.   All because Schultz didn't think it was right that someone should have the chance for 4 NCAA titles. 

mspart

LOL...is that how he put it? That's kinda like the crazy girlfriend or boyfriend, "If I can't have you, nobody can!" I thought he just moved up so his brother could Wrestle 167(and of course stop Banach as that's always a nice feather in your hat). 

 

[Wrestej]

49 minutes ago, Matthew Burns said:

109 dwarfs that. 

Would you make a similar argument for Wade Schalles? He is basically Ben Askren 1.0 with 20 percent more pins back in 3 year eligibility phase.

Schalles wrestled 1970-1974.  Four years

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Burroughs not being on your lists = nonsense.  World gold coming out of senior year and kept Dake and Taylor off the national team shortly after.  
 

This is effectively saying having Dake or Taylor on the list is nonsense.

JB is an all-time great. You really think he was not only better than Taylor/Dake, but SO much so that it's ridiculous to put the other two on the team?

Burroughs was great. I'm not sure I'd argue that he was that far superior to the rest of the field.

[fishbane]

35 minutes ago, Wrestej said:

Schalles wrestled 1970-1974.  Four years

He did, but I recall some distinction that he was ineligible as both a freshman and a senior.  Perhaps I he could wrestle in the regular season, but not the post-season?  I don't recall.

[lu1979]

42 minutes ago, Wrestej said:

Schalles wrestled 1970-1974.  Four years

Schalles was not allowed to wrestle at NCAAs his senior year for some arcane reasoning - I can't recall the details - that year he did beat the NCAA OW who was at 177 (Floyd Hitchcock Bloomsberg) who would have been 1 or 2 weights above him.  Wade would have competed at 158 or 167 that year.

[lu1979]

9 minutes ago, fishbane said:

He did, but I recall some distinction that he was ineligible as both a freshman and a senior.  Perhaps I he could wrestle in the regular season, but not the post-season?  I don't recall.

He did compete his freshman year - he just wasn't good enough at that time to be one of the best in his weight.

[nhs67]

Some of these lists are just capital 'S' Stoopid.

Retherford the best 141lber?  Guy placed 5th the only year he wrestled 141.

Dake is the best 141lber?  He won the NCAA tournament but he wasn't even the best 141lber in his conference that year.

Snyder the best 197lber?  He got decked in the finals the only year he wrestled 197lbs.

Yianni the best 149lber?  Are you talking his Junior season version, because he lost this year.

[11986]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

I like that list. It's GOTTA be the best against the competition you face, how you fared against your peers...otherwise you go back and look at...Banach for example and compare him to '97 pounders now and the technique just does not compare. But, 1/1/2/1 kinda says it all! 

 

I like these discussions in that I learn something or am reminded how good some guys were that I had forgotten about. Generally speaking I think it’s silly to argue about these things, it’s all hypothetical unless guys actually wrestled each other.  Regarding Ed Banach, big fan from way back. I’ll say this though for consideration on him being the choice at 197. He only wrestled 1 year at the equivalent weight 190, and lost 3 x that year to Mike Mann from Iowa State. He did beat Mann 4-3 in the finals. 

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, lu1979 said:

He did compete his freshman year - he just wasn't good enough at that time to be one of the best in his weight.

Yeah I guess I misremembered.  Found this on his HOF bio

"Following high school graduation, Schalles attended summer school for one week at East Stroudsburg and then left for Clarion University. The Eastern College Athletic Conference ruled that because he had attended summer school, Schalles had transferred to Clarion and would be required to sit out his freshman year. 

The NCAA said that Schalles could wrestle because summer school doesn’t count for any athlete, at any time, regardless of where they go. Seeded fifth at the NCAA tournament in 1971, he lost in the third round.

Schalles won the NCAA Division I and Division II titles at 150 pounds in 1972 and at 158 pounds in 1973. He was named Outstanding Wrestler at both national tournaments in 1972.

In 1974, Schalles went undefeated and wrestled the entire season per the ECAC rules, but was not allowed to attend the NCAA tournament given their previous ruling regarding his transferring."

[Wrestej]

1 hour ago, lu1979 said:

Schalles was not allowed to wrestle at NCAAs his senior year for some arcane reasoning - I can't recall the details - that year he did beat the NCAA OW who was at 177 (Floyd Hitchcock Bloomsberg) who would have been 1 or 2 weights above him.  Wade would have competed at 158 or 167 that year.

Yes, but he did compete for four years.

[lu1979]

6 hours ago, Wrestej said:

Yes, but he did compete for four years.

That is technically true but if you want to show the whole picture you should specify that in his last season of competition when he was a heavy favorite to win NCAAs he was not allowed to participate in NCAAs.