VakAttack Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 1 minute ago, CHROMEBIRD said: People get too quantitative with these GOAT rankings. Numbers are important but so is context. A win is not a win when comparing records. Sure there others with more wins but whenever Spencer won, it was very often an absolute manhandling. Pinning and teching so many opponents in the 1st period has to count for something. So should his leadership on the team and the excitement he brought to CHA and the sport itself. Those cannot be measured, but should be considered. But on the other hand.... I will say that a lot of the rankings and "best ever" talk these days should come with an asterisk, Spencer included. The bonus Covid year has thrown a wrench into the parity of college wrestling. There are more older wrestlers than ever competing with incoming kids who are much younger and less physically developed. That might partly explain why the NCAA finishers looked the way they did. A lot of the guys on the podium would've been gone by now if it wasn't for the freebie season. Agreed. Iowa and Spencer were about 3 days away from (extremely, extremely likely) two team titles during his career and 4 NCAA titles butfor the COVID cancellation. Instead it's 1 and 3. Thems the breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headshuck Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 When you think that way, lots of what if scenarios appear. Steveson was 3 days and a riding time point from being a 4-timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VakAttack Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 5 minutes ago, headshuck said: When you think that way, lots of what if scenarios appear. Steveson was 3 days and a riding time point from being a 4-timer. A slight difference between an something off the mat, like COVID, vs. actual wrestling action, but sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headshuck Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Didn’t you assume the Covid cancellation was a guaranteed win for Lee and Iowa? I’ll give Steveson the same guarantee. 3 titles. Yes the riding point was just for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VakAttack Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 1 minute ago, headshuck said: Didn’t you assume the Covid cancellation was a guaranteed win for Lee and Iowa? I’ll give Steveson the same guarantee. 3 titles. Yes the riding point was just for fun. I didn't assume it was guaranteed, I said highly likely. Upsets happen (obviously). I believe what I said was Iowa and Spencer likely end up with 2 and 4 but for COVID, and instead ended up winning 1 and 3. I'm not granting Spencer 4 titles. He's a three timer, sadly (for me). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 1 hour ago, CHROMEBIRD said: People get too quantitative with these GOAT rankings. I said good day, sir. 1 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDole Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 I think we can all agree that Lee had a really weird career. He took losses to guys that shouldn't have held a candle to him, but also dominated everyone like very few in the sport has. Then let's add that he is on the most loved/hated team... He was good, very good, but had moments that we wonder what happened. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerDurden Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 I don't have a specific number for Lee, but I have him the same rank as Sebastian Rivera. Honestly, every program in the country would love to have a guy like Spencer Lee. I always enjoyed watching him wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 6 hours ago, Dogbone said: He was the most dominant wrestler I have ever personally seen. He bonus pointed almost everyone he faced, including pinning and tech falling guys who have won NCAAs. He had an injury plagued career and still won 3 Titles. If you want to rank the 3 timers by where they finished when they came up short, then just copy and paste the list. The bottom line is we may never see anything like him again at the college level. To me, he was one the best to ever do it regardless of credentials. I strongly agree with the bold. You can just use a formula to come up with the best Wrestlers ever. It doesn't take into account that David Taylor was undefeated as a Freshmen and got caught in a bit of a fluke pin vs a former runner-up or that his OTHER losses were to a 4X Champ and one of the Greatest ever. In all of these I will argue it's silly to just rank them as though there is no context. I'll put Lee over Stieber...IMO. I'm just taking College dominance. I'll also put Mcllravy over Lee. It's hard to come up with a top 20-25 ranking. Ben Askren couldn't beat ONE Wrestler. Is he really behind ALL 3X National Champs? Now, I don't agree with the last part, the best to ever do it, but I get why you're saying that. He was uniquely dominant for a 125. I think it's easier/smarter to rank or compare the best at weights. So 118/125 it's Abas(4/1/1/1 144-4 career record) and Lee(1/1/1/6) 98-6 career record) as the two best IMO. Abas had two losses to Jurgens from Iowa and then one when he bumped up to Wrestle Guerrero in a great match(4-3 I believe). Lee's were a little more spread out, but he was more dominant in his wins. Produced more team points. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 5 hours ago, PortaJohn said: Every wrestler who lost their senior year NCAA tournament due to Covid was hit worse than Spencer Lee. Joseph, Hall...potential 1/1/2/1 and a 1/2/2/1. Both had the chance to jump tiers if not for the cancellation. As for the argument that Lee would have won if 2020 was wrestled...everyone thought he'd win THIS year, he didn't. Sucks for him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogbone Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, scourge165 said: In all of these I will argue it's silly to just rank them as though there is no context. Exactly. For the record, I meant to type one OF the best but I like your phrase of uniquely dominate which illustrates my thoughts better. It's okay that people value different criteria in these arguments, but to pretend there is no context is silly. For example @headshuck (as I understand his argument) likes Steveson because he was physically/athletically more dominate/rarely challenged and doesn't put as much weight on pins. I can respect that. I just put more emphasis on pinning/TF and pinning guys quickly. Steveson was physically and athletically dominate but Lee had a unique ability to end matches very quickly. David Taylor's 2012 NCAA tournament was the most dominant (as I value "dominate") that can I recall and that will probably always distort my opinion on his career. Lee Kemp was before my time but I understand and respect why someone who saw him wrestle might claim he was better. Edited March 24, 2023 by Dogbone 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcement Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Folkstyle Lee - he had a higher peak than many will ever dream off. But the full body of his work contained a number of blemishes which would detract from his overall ranking. And then there is the unfortunate reality: "Last impressions are lasting impressions" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swoopdown Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 22 hours ago, Perry said: Where Does Lee Rank? I rank Lee below General Grant even though Lee was funky in scrambles and a real bugger to take down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 23 minutes ago, swoopdown said: I rank Lee below General Grant even though Lee was funky in scrambles and a real bugger to take down. Grant had size on his side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) I'd also rank Sherman over Lee, he was a brute and ... kid was on fire! Edited March 24, 2023 by ionel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 7 hours ago, Barracuda141 said: In the last 25 years, I have him ahead of Eric Guerrero and Rosholt. He's behind Joe Williams, Abas, Greg Jones, Ed Ruth, Ringer, J'Den, Snyder, Retherford, Nolf, and Nickal. He's also behind Starocci & Brooks. I disagree. Lee was dominant as has been stated. Joe Williams won but not in dominant fashion, his matches were always close. He could have been dominant but that didn't seem to be his thing. I would put him behind Snyder, Retherford and Nickal. I don't think he is behind any of the others. Perhaps we split the difference and say he is one of the greatest NCAA wrestlers of all time. mspart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimpeltf Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 5 minutes ago, ionel said: I'd also rank Sherman over Lee, he was a brute and ... kid was on fire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swoopdown Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 6 minutes ago, MPhillips said: Grant had size on his side... Grant knew how to apply superior strength to maintain the initiative against defense, stalls and counters. That was his genius. No other cracked the code against Lee. If Lee had not entered the portal he may have developed an effective offensive game, but he made his choice and was effectively countered on his two offensive thrusts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimpeltf Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Just now, swoopdown said: Grant knew how to apply superior strength to maintain the initiative against defense, stalls and counters. That was his genius. No other cracked the code against Lee. If Lee had not entered the portal he may have developed an effective offensive game, but he made his choice and was effectively countered on his two offensive thrusts. I should have known 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Just look at Sherman, he could take down a tank!! mspart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 7 hours ago, Barracuda141 said: In the last 25 years, I have him ahead of Eric Guerrero and Rosholt. He's behind Joe Williams, Abas, Greg Jones, Ed Ruth, Ringer, J'Den, Snyder, Retherford, Nolf, and Nickal. He's also behind Starocci & Brooks. 5 minutes ago, mspart said: I disagree. Lee was dominant as has been stated. Joe Williams won but not in dominant fashion, his matches were always close. He could have been dominant but that didn't seem to be his thing. I would put him behind Snyder, Retherford and Nickal. I don't think he is behind any of the others. Perhaps we split the difference and say he is one of the greatest NCAA wrestlers of all time. mspart I'm too lazy to look it up, were any of the above ever pinned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 35 minutes ago, ionel said: I'm too lazy to look it up, were any of the above ever pinned? I know Ruth was pinned vs...the Stanford kid(he was just abused on top and down ~11-2 and I don't wanna say he gave up...but he kinda gave up). And Jones after winning it I THINK he got pinned on the backside vs an MSU kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrassler Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 Technically, Sebastian Rivera is better than Lee! Let’s see what happens down the road! I will say this! Vito looked ten times better than Spencer Lee at Nationals where he lit up Daton Fix and RBY! I never saw those two studs take such a lambasting! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3 for LU Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 ... wait, wait, I didn't know, or, as far as I could tell, Spencer wasn't in the military. Not as a commissioned officer starting at O-1... not even enlisted as an E-1. D3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadkilla Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, scourge165 said: I know Ruth was pinned vs...the Stanford kid(he was just abused on top and down ~11-2 and I don't wanna say he gave up...but he kinda gave up). And Jones after winning it I THINK he got pinned on the backside vs an MSU kid. Ruth didn't get pinned he injury defaulted against Amuchastegui after the second period. But he wrestled back and got third. They wrestled the following year in the NCAA final and Ruth won 13-2. Edited March 25, 2023 by Threadkilla 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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