The biggest winner of NCAA Championships weekend: Rock Harrison

[fishbane]

8 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Woops, Alirez.  Yes, I noticed the ref did not do well with the point signaling.

 

I recall Gibbons questioning the ref and his repositioning.  Something about putting hand down was four count.  Not Gibbons?  And then questioning why the ref moved to where he did when he should have shifted the other way.  Doesn’t matter really.  Ref counted three and the stopped.  That is what he only awarded two backs.  Thought the count stop at that time was reasonable since the angle of Woods’ back seems to go higher than 45 degrees.
 

I could see questioning when the count should have started.  When did Alirez gain control .. that is the key. When it ended seemed about right.

I didn't get the part about shifting the other way either.  Maybe he thought shifting towards Woods's head he would have a side view of the angle his back was creating with the mat?  Looking from that angle you could imagine putting a protractor up to measure the angle. 

I think the point he was making about putting the hand down was that the action delayed the 4th swipe and Gibbons judged the action to take as much time as a swipe.  He probably also judged that NF criteria to have been maintained through the adjustment or at least that the angle had not changed and that had the referee just continued the count w/o adjustment he would have counted to 4. 

I don't know when the TD should have been awarded, but the referee did seem to start the count immediately after throwing up the two albeit with the wrong hand. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I'm trying to remember the exact sequence: Was it a takedown or a reversal?  

[1032004]

4 hours ago, fishbane said:

I didn't get the part about shifting the other way either.  Maybe he thought shifting towards Woods's head he would have a side view of the angle his back was creating with the mat?  Looking from that angle you could imagine putting a protractor up to measure the angle. 

I think the point he was making about putting the hand down was that the action delayed the 4th swipe and Gibbons judged the action to take as much time as a swipe.  He probably also judged that NF criteria to have been maintained through the adjustment or at least that the angle had not changed and that had the referee just continued the count w/o adjustment he would have counted to 4. 

I don't know when the TD should have been awarded, but the referee did seem to start the count immediately after throwing up the two albeit with the wrong hand. 

A lot of refs don’t necessarily swipe with the hand getting NF.  But as you mentioned earlier, Angel did give Woods’ initial nearfall and Alirez’s reversal to the wrong colors and was holding the 2 NF for Alirez as red before switching to green to award it.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

A lot of refs don’t necessarily swipe with the hand getting NF.  But as you mentioned earlier, Angel did give Woods’ initial nearfall and Alirez’s reversal to the wrong colors and was holding the 2 NF for Alirez as red before switching to green to award it.

I will almost always start my count from a feet to back or reversal to back situation with the "wrong" hand.  Why?  If red scores, I hold up "2 red" as I am counting with my green hand.  If I get a chance, I may switch to my red hand for swipes once it is obvious that the initial 2 has been seen.

[fishbane]

19 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

A lot of refs don’t necessarily swipe with the hand getting NF.  

According to the rule they are supposed to at the NCAA level "whenever possible."

Rule 4.5.2 Counting the Near Fall. A verbal count and, whenever possible, a visual hand count shall be used in determining a near fall. Likewise, a referee shall verbally inform the wrestlers when near fall points have been earned. A near fall is ended when the defensive wrestler is no longer in one of the three criteria positions.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

7 minutes ago, fishbane said:

According to the rule they are supposed to at the NCAA level "whenever possible."

Rule 4.5.2 Counting the Near Fall. A verbal count and, whenever possible, a visual hand count shall be used in determining a near fall. Likewise, a referee shall verbally inform the wrestlers when near fall points have been earned. A near fall is ended when the defensive wrestler is no longer in one of the three criteria positions.

It is tough to do this when you are holding up "2!"

[1032004]

8 minutes ago, fishbane said:

According to the rule they are supposed to at the NCAA level "whenever possible."

Rule 4.5.2 Counting the Near Fall. A verbal count and, whenever possible, a visual hand count shall be used in determining a near fall. Likewise, a referee shall verbally inform the wrestlers when near fall points have been earned. A near fall is ended when the defensive wrestler is no longer in one of the three criteria positions.

That doesn’t say the hand count needs to be of the color earning the NF

[fishbane]

4 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It is tough to do this when you are holding up "2!"

Right "whenever possible." I didn't think there was a requirement to use a particular color hand for counting just when awarding the points.   The issue wasn't that he used the wrong hand to count.  He used the wrong hand to award Real Woods's NF points initially (which wasn't a feet to back TD or reversal to NF situation).  Then he used the wrong hand to award Alirez's takedown.  Then he held the two finger up on the wrong hand from the TD award through counting the Alirez's NF and started to award them with the wrong hand before finally changing to the correct hand (green).  That change happened after a break in action and he had a moment to perhaps consider things and realize his mistake.

[1032004]

31 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Right "whenever possible." I didn't think there was a requirement to use a particular color hand for counting just when awarding the points.   The issue wasn't that he used the wrong hand to count.  He used the wrong hand to award Real Woods's NF points initially (which wasn't a feet to back TD or reversal to NF situation).  Then he used the wrong hand to award Alirez's takedown.  Then he held the two finger up on the wrong hand from the TD award through counting the Alirez's NF and started to award them with the wrong hand before finally changing to the correct hand (green).  That change happened after a break in action and he had a moment to perhaps consider things and realize his mistake.

Sorry just realized my post could have been misunderstood, yes I was referring to "the hand" as the color.  Yes as you said there should be swipes when possible.

But what do you mean by "the issue"?  Yes Rivera did screw up the colors at first, but do you think that had an impact on him not counting to 4?   I'd guess no.

[fishbane]

37 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Sorry just realized my post could have been misunderstood, yes I was referring to "the hand" as the color.  Yes as you said there should be swipes when possible.

But what do you mean by "the issue"?  Yes Rivera did screw up the colors at first, but do you think that had an impact on him not counting to 4?   I'd guess no.

Yeah I don't think it did.  If I had to guess at what happened it would be this.  Takedown and first two swipes happen as normal speed.  The third swipe is noticable slower on the playback.  Perhaps he felt like he didn't didn't have a good look and was wondering if criteria was still met.  This was probably subconscious like when someone talks slowly or draws out a "yes" when they are actually still thinking about it.  He then decides to adjust between swipe 3 and swipe 4 which slows what would have been the 4th swipe down even move.  I think you can see him wind up for a 4th swipe after he takes his hand off the mat but changes his mind.

I don't think he realized he had used the wrong hand for anything until after calling action out of bounds.  So this likely would not have been responsible for any confusion that slowed down his count.  That was probably either indecision about whether criteria was still met or an inability to decouple the verbal count from the hand count when moving.  A third explanation was that he decided criteria was broken immediately after the third count and before adjusting, but it looks to me like after the adjustment he was winding up for another swipe. That could have been a swipe for a new count or something that just looked like a swipe windup, but based on what was happening with the wrestling in my estimation it was likely a 4th albeit slow swipe.  

[1032004]

41 minutes ago, fishbane said:

A third explanation was that he decided criteria was broken immediately after the third count and before adjusting, but it looks to me like after the adjustment he was winding up for another swipe. 

Agree with this 100%.  After first watch I thought maybe he was trying to indicate that Woods had gotten above 45, but after watching it a few times it looks like he was winding up then changed his mind.