Worst tactical mistakes of NCAAs?

[scourge165]

35 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

I think this was covered elsewhere, but no NF was the right call. Shoulder blades have to be 4" from the mat. Yianni's were nowhere near that. 

I missed that conversation. I didn't think he had it...I also don't think the 4 inches is that closely observed. For instance, if Murin could have kept Yianni on his left side(right at the start of the scramble I think...when he rolls through. If he could have held him there, I think they start counting, but he was probably 4" off the mat.

Murin could have easily gotten called for the defensive pin there also. 

Anyway, I guess I should have assumed a match between a 4X(potential 4X Champ at the time) and an Iowa guy would have been discussed.

[Crotalus]

10 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I missed that conversation. I didn't think he had it...I also don't think the 4 inches is that closely observed. For instance, if Murin could have kept Yianni on his left side(right at the start of the scramble I think...when he rolls through. If he could have held him there, I think they start counting, but he was probably 4" off the mat.

Murin could have easily gotten called for the defensive pin there also. 

Anyway, I guess I should have assumed a match between a 4X(potential 4X Champ at the time) and an Iowa guy would have been discussed.

I'm sure it's buried in some long and winding thread. I think our resident Iowa fan, Vac, was asking about it and was sufficiently convinced it was a good no call. I agree with you, though, that is definitely not always strictly called at 4", especially if the offensive wrestler is able to hold their opponent on their back with a little more control than Murin had. I'm sure you can find some tilts where the defensive guy is bridging more than 4" and the ref is swiping.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Crotalus

[Antitroll2828]

4 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Yianni said he Wrestled looser this tournament due to some family issues(everything was fine though). But it seemed like he wrestled a bit tighter. Van Ness wrestled out of his mind and had a great tourney, but I was surprised to see him on the ropes so many times. 

 

4 hours ago, Le duke said:

Van Ness has all of the talent on the world but is lacking mat time. You could see that he was right there in his last match against Murin (3rd place match) and put it all together at NCAAs.

I imagine the many mistakes he regularly makes will be picked apart and fixed by Casey and Cody this summer, and his offensive repertoire will expand. First up, teach the kid to sprawl.


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Van ness is the first recruit that I can remember Cael really talked up and gushed about before he even hit the mat , Cael usually pretty stoic when asked about young guys “ they re doing well”, “they are learning” “we ll see what happens”  , but with van ness his eyes lit up and he was talked about how van ness can really wrestle and how excited he was to see him compete..that alone should tell you enough about van ness potential 

[BerniePragle]

2 hours ago, Crotalus said:

I'm sure it's buried in some long and winding thread. I think our resident Iowa fan, Vac, was asking about it and was sufficiently convinced it was a good no call. I agree with you, though, that is definitely not always strictly called at 4", especially if the offensive wrestler is able to hold their opponent on their back with a little more control than Murin had. I'm sure you can find some tilts where the defensive guy is bridging more than 4" and the ref is swiping.

I guess it goes without saying that very, very rarely is the defensive wrestler's back as parallel, both ways, to the mat as Yianni's were without being stuck.  At least at the time he was on top of Murin.  I guess as long as Murin is thicker than 4", it was the right call.  Probably that's why someone on here said that position can't be backpoints.  It was a weird situation.  I'll never forget the expression on Yianni's face.  He was more than a little worried for a few seconds.

[gimpeltf]

8 hours ago, scourge165 said:

No, it was not. A stalling was awarded in the final ~5 seconds to tie the score up at 3, but O'Conner had RT.

 

Again, no, the escape was not given. A stalling call was given. If they'd have called the escape, there's no chance they could have overruled it on the mat.

I was watching it on ESPN, so it's possible the timer was off...but I'm skeptical it was 2 seconds off...and he kicks out with 2 seconds, hits the mat at ~1 and is up and facing before you the clock is at 0...on ESPN.

So it's possible that was the issue, but again, you can hear the refs and they said they can't see the time.

Escape was definitely put up on the board tieing the score.

We were surprised he got released and we saw two 1 point signals. My gut told me it was too late but I wasn't looking directly at the clock.

When the refs came back out after reviewing they signaled stall and then no score and one point came off the clock.

[scourge165]

9 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Escape was definitely put up on the board tieing the score.

We were surprised he got released and we saw two 1 point signals. My gut told me it was too late but I wasn't looking directly at the clock.

When the refs came back out after reviewing they signaled stall and then no score and one point came off the clock.

He was awarded the one for the stalling, not for the escape, that's what Scott was screaming about. I don't think he ever gave a point for the escape...but it's pointless to argue over this until someone posts the video. 

[gimpeltf]

2 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

He was awarded the one for the stalling, not for the escape, that's what Scott was screaming about. I don't think he ever gave a point for the escape...but it's pointless to argue over this until someone posts the video. 

You're missing the obvious in that both points went up on the board. If the refs didn't make the call they wouldn't have needed to have the review. They could have just said that they didn't make the call. Then Lehigh might have been able to throw the brick.

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

You're missing the obvious in that both points went up on the board. If the refs didn't make the call they wouldn't have needed to have the review. They could have just said that they didn't make the call. Then Lehigh might have been able to throw the brick.

That's not the obvious at all. I don't think both points DID go up on the board and they could still check to see if their call was confirmed...which I'm fairly certain they did. The ref signals 1 green and then 1 red all in short succession. Never did he give 1 green and then another 1 green. Obviously you can review to ensure your call was correct, not just to change your call. 

Now if you don't have video of it, it's just my memory vs yours and this logic which is faulty....so there is literally zero point in continuing this until they throw the video up.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by scourge165

[gimpeltf]

That's not the obvious at all. I don't think both points DID go up on the board and they could still check to see if their call was confirmed...which I'm fairly certain they did. The ref signals 1 green and then 1 red all in short succession. Never did he give 1 green and then another 1 green. Obviously you can review to ensure your call was correct, not just to change your call. 
Now if you don't have video of it, it's just my memory vs yours and this logic which is faulty....so there is literally zero point in continuing this until they throw the video up.
 

Wow, the score showed tied. It took both points to do that. Why would they review to see if he won by one point or two?

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[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

13 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I missed that conversation. I didn't think he had it...I also don't think the 4 inches is that closely observed. For instance, if Murin could have kept Yianni on his left side(right at the start of the scramble I think...when he rolls through. If he could have held him there, I think they start counting, but he was probably 4" off the mat.

Murin could have easily gotten called for the defensive pin there also. 

Anyway, I guess I should have assumed a match between a 4X(potential 4X Champ at the time) and an Iowa guy would have been discussed.

You don't have to have less than 4" if the defensive man is in a bridge, on both elbows, or at 45 degrees (or less).

[scourge165]

22 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Wow, the score showed tied. It took both points to do that. Why would they review to see if he won by one point or two?

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
 

It showed the score tied because it was a 1 point match!?! It was 3-2. O'Connor had RT.

When is RT awarded? AFTER the match. So 3-3 makes kinda proves my point. It did NOT take both points to do that, it took ONE point to "tie" the match up on the board. It would have been 4-3 if they'd have given Humprhreys the RT AFTER the match. It did NOT show the score tied at 4-4. 

Christ...

[scourge165]

16 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

You don't have to have less than 4" if the defensive man is in a bridge, on both elbows, or at 45 degrees (or less).

Wait...I don't get this. You have to be at 45 degrees to get NF no matter how high off the mat someone is...no?

90 for danger and 45 for NF(again, not always exactly observed...kinda like a pin that's supposed to be 1 second, but is usually closer to a touch fall).

 

[ScarletKnight]

A near mistake was Hilday cut Soldano looking for the major and almost got put on his back. Jaja. After that he didn't really shoot again and let the time run out for a major decision 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

7 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Wait...I don't get this. You have to be at 45 degrees to get NF no matter how high off the mat someone is...no?

90 for danger and 45 for NF(again, not always exactly observed...kinda like a pin that's supposed to be 1 second, but is usually closer to a touch fall).

 

45 degrees only applies if a shoulder or scapula is in contact with the mat.

The other criteria are: propped up on both elbows, bridging, less than 4".

(and we don't have protractors or rulers so sometimes 46 degrees or 5 inches get swipes.)

[Antitroll2828]

On 3/21/2023 at 6:24 PM, Gus said:

Isn't SVN a Blair kid? It's not like he's from an isolated village in Alaska and is just being exposed to the nuances of the sport.

True but he didn’t wrestle senior year because of Covid shenanigans and hurt his knee early in his redshirt year and didn’t wrestle much so he definitely had some rust to shake off and to build some of his confidence back up 

[scourge165]

49 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

True but he didn’t wrestle senior year because of Covid shenanigans and hurt his knee early in his redshirt year and didn’t wrestle much so he definitely had some rust to shake off and to build some of his confidence back up 

All fair enough, it's just funny saying that about a Blair Kid. Probably had as much mat time as anyone his age. But I did take the point, he took a little while to kinda catch his stride. 

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

45 degrees only applies if a shoulder or scapula is in contact with the mat.

The other criteria are: propped up on both elbows, bridging, less than 4".

(and we don't have protractors or rulers so sometimes 46 degrees or 5 inches get swipes.)

So if you're on a tilt and you have a guy loaded up, you only need to get 70 pct? 

Yeah, I get it's not an exact science, but what's it actually say in the rule book? 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

So if you're on a tilt and you have a guy loaded up, you only need to get 70 pct? 

Yeah, I get it's not an exact science, but what's it actually say in the rule book? 

It is almost always going to be 45 degrees, but there are other criteria that could be met.  Keep in mind, the "45 degrees' rule only comes into play when one shoulder or scapula is on the mat.  

I can't find my NCAA rulebook PDF, this is from an NCAA publication though:

A near fall is when an offensive wrestler turns his opponent past 45 degrees for a period of time. This can occur in a bridged position as well, on both elbows or when a wrestler has his back within four inches of the mat.

 

So, "both elbows" can come into play off of a double, a suckback, or a headlock, etc.

I usually see "four inches off of a suckback, but I suppose it could be a tilt.  (Yianni was careful not to bridge when Murin was tilting)

 

[scourge165]

30 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It is almost always going to be 45 degrees, but there are other criteria that could be met.  Keep in mind, the "45 degrees' rule only comes into play when one shoulder or scapula is on the mat.  

I can't find my NCAA rulebook PDF, this is from an NCAA publication though:

A near fall is when an offensive wrestler turns his opponent past 45 degrees for a period of time. This can occur in a bridged position as well, on both elbows or when a wrestler has his back within four inches of the mat.

 

So, "both elbows" can come into play off of a double, a suckback, or a headlock, etc.

I usually see "four inches off of a suckback, but I suppose it could be a tilt.  (Yianni was careful not to bridge when Murin was tilting)

 

Yeah, but you're saying 45 degrees ONLY applies in those situations. I think it's just giving examples. It's always 45 degrees. I'm saying when would it NOT be 45 degrees?

 

4 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

45 degrees only applies if a shoulder or scapula is in contact with the mat.

This is what I'm questioning. 

You're saying it ONLY applies, it's saying it CAN apply in these situations.

As for Yianni...I'm not even sure he could have bridged there. He was all the way on top of Murin. But again, I think if you were to call that one by the letter, Murin probably had a defensive fall. Yiannis grabs his head, then he's kinda looking to see if there NF being counted(I think he's getting nervous at this point) and then he rolls through). 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

31 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Yeah, but you're saying 45 degrees ONLY applies in those situations. I think it's just giving examples. It's always 45 degrees. I'm saying when would it NOT be 45 degrees?

 

This is what I'm questioning. 

You're saying it ONLY applies, it's saying it CAN apply in these situations.

 

I understand what you are saying.  

I am a ref.  We are only concerned about 45 degrees when one shoulder is on a mat.  That is it.

If you want to say it is 0 degrees in a bridge or whatever, that is fine.  But 45 is only looked at if there is one shoulder on the mat.  That is the only time you look for that criteria.  

Can you picture a non 45 degree situation? Perhaps if a man is on both elbows and crunched forward on his butt in a double?

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 3/21/2023 at 6:25 PM, scourge165 said:

I missed that conversation. I didn't think he had it...I also don't think the 4 inches is that closely observed. For instance, if Murin could have kept Yianni on his left side(right at the start of the scramble I think...when he rolls through. If he could have held him there, I think they start counting, but he was probably 4" off the mat.

Murin could have easily gotten called for the defensive pin there also. 

Anyway, I guess I should have assumed a match between a 4X(potential 4X Champ at the time) and an Iowa guy would have been discussed.

Going back to your initial post, I may have misunderstood your point.  You may also be misunderstanding mine.  I will take credit (blame) for the initial misunderstanding.  I thought you were saying one thing, but after multiple re-readings, you may have been saying another. Mea culpa!

[LJB]

[Gus]

5 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

True but he didn’t wrestle senior year because of Covid shenanigans and hurt his knee early in his redshirt year and didn’t wrestle much so he definitely had some rust to shake off and to build some of his confidence back up 

Fair enough. Time will tell if he just had an insane run or if he unlocked something in this tournament. With PSU's track record, I think it's safe to assume something was unlocked.

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I understand what you are saying.  

I am a ref.  We are only concerned about 45 degrees when one shoulder is on a mat.  That is it.

If you want to say it is 0 degrees in a bridge or whatever, that is fine.  But 45 is only looked at if there is one shoulder on the mat.  That is the only time you look for that criteria.  

Can you picture a non 45 degree situation? Perhaps if a man is on both elbows and crunched forward on his butt in a double?

 

I can, but that also seems like it'd be NF from the back. If you're on your elbows...it's tough to see how you wouldn't be at 45. The middle part of the back. It's not like it's the top of the shoulder blades that count as NF(as seems to often be the criteria in JHS or JV), so if you're on your elbows, seems like you'd normally be at 45.

But again, how about a title where you've got the far arm and the top Wrestler is loaded up on the other Wrestler? Lee's done this numerous times(almost thought he was gonna get a couple falls on it). His head isn't necessarily touching either.

I guess I'm just a bit thrown when you say you ONLY look for 45 when one shoulder or scapula is on the mat. That seems...wrong to me. I'm not arguing or saying it is, just trying to understand. It'd be a really rare situation, but the tilt is the best example I can think of.

Basically, picture it like a trapped arm in Greco(almost). Remember when you used to get the extra point for holding them there for...2 seconds IIRC, maybe it was 3.

[MPhillips]

3 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I usually see "four inches off of a suckback

That's what she said.

And with that, I'll head on down to the Zoo.