Seriously, Michigan?

[jross]

In 2020, 20% of the country's counties had more than 50% of all gun homicides (~19K).
https://wisqars.cdc.gov/data/explore-data/home

And less than 1% of the city's population causes> 50% of the city's homicides.
https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/files/nnsc_gmi_concentration_asc_v1.91.pdf

There are some awful street/block segments to avoid in these counties.
 

State - County                Firearm Murder

IL - Cook	862
CA - Los Angeles	524
TX - Harris	475
PA - Philadelphia	453
MI - Wayne	344
TN - Shelby	301
TX - Dallas	251
AZ - Maricopa	249
MD - Baltimore	243
IN - Marion	219
OH - Cuyahoga	209
FL - Miami-Dade	208
WI - Milwaukee	181
MO - St. Louis	180
MO - St. Louis	180
GA - Fulton	168
LA - Orleans	168
KY - Jefferson	160
MO - Jackson	160
DC - District of Columbia	157
OH - Franklin	157
AL - Jefferson	151
CA - San Bernardino	147
TX - Bexar	147
FL - Broward	146
FL - Duval	143
TX - Tarrant	140
NY - Kings	120
LA - East Baton Rouge	118
NV - Clark	118
CA - Alameda	117
MS - Hinds	113
CA - Riverside	112
MD - Prince George's	111
NC - Mecklenburg	111
GA - DeKalb	107
OH - Hamilton	103
CA - Kern	102
TN - Davidson	98
CA - Fresno	91
PA - Allegheny	91
FL - Orange	90
CA - Sacramento	89
FL - Palm Beach	81
IN - Lake	81
NY - Bronx	78
AR - Pulaski	77
FL - Hillsborough	77
OK - Oklahoma	76
CA - San Diego	71
WA - King	71
MD - Baltimore	70
LA - Caddo	69
LA - Jefferson	67
AL - Mobile	66
AL - Montgomery	66
NC - Guilford	66
CA - San Joaquin	65
NJ - Essex	65
MN - Hennepin	64
NM - Bernalillo	64
OH - Montgomery	63
MI - Genesee	61
IL - St. Clair	60

 

In Kansas, you can find a murderer back on Wyandotte County streets in 5 years.  A little south in Johnson county, the murderer is locked up for 30 years, life, or whatever it should be.  Or so says a cop.

 

[Plasmodium]

9 hours ago, jross said:

In 2020, 20% of the country's counties had more than 50% of all gun homicides (~19K).
https://wisqars.cdc.gov/data/explore-data/home

And less than 1% of the city's population causes> 50% of the city's homicides.
https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/files/nnsc_gmi_concentration_asc_v1.91.pdf

There are some awful street/block segments to avoid in these counties.
 

State - County                Firearm Murder

IL - Cook	862
CA - Los Angeles	524
TX - Harris	475
PA - Philadelphia	453
MI - Wayne	344
TN - Shelby	301
TX - Dallas	251
AZ - Maricopa	249
MD - Baltimore	243
IN - Marion	219
OH - Cuyahoga	209
FL - Miami-Dade	208
WI - Milwaukee	181
MO - St. Louis	180
MO - St. Louis	180
GA - Fulton	168
LA - Orleans	168
KY - Jefferson	160
MO - Jackson	160
DC - District of Columbia	157
OH - Franklin	157
AL - Jefferson	151
CA - San Bernardino	147
TX - Bexar	147
FL - Broward	146
FL - Duval	143
TX - Tarrant	140
NY - Kings	120
LA - East Baton Rouge	118
NV - Clark	118
CA - Alameda	117
MS - Hinds	113
CA - Riverside	112
MD - Prince George's	111
NC - Mecklenburg	111
GA - DeKalb	107
OH - Hamilton	103
CA - Kern	102
TN - Davidson	98
CA - Fresno	91
PA - Allegheny	91
FL - Orange	90
CA - Sacramento	89
FL - Palm Beach	81
IN - Lake	81
NY - Bronx	78
AR - Pulaski	77
FL - Hillsborough	77
OK - Oklahoma	76
CA - San Diego	71
WA - King	71
MD - Baltimore	70
LA - Caddo	69
LA - Jefferson	67
AL - Mobile	66
AL - Montgomery	66
NC - Guilford	66
CA - San Joaquin	65
NJ - Essex	65
MN - Hennepin	64
NM - Bernalillo	64
OH - Montgomery	63
MI - Genesee	61
IL - St. Clair	60

 

In Kansas, you can find a murderer back on Wyandotte County streets in 5 years.  A little south in Johnson county, the murderer is locked up for 30 years, life, or whatever it should be.  Or so says a cop.

 

Those counties can't do anything about the guns.  The rest of country thinks it is their problem alone. 

[jross]

The data is what it is.

[Nailbender]

On 1/27/2023 at 8:13 PM, Plasmodium said:

It is barbaric and unacceptable.

I tried going back. I can't seem to find what you're referring to? What is "barbaric and unacceptable"?

[Plasmodium]

3 hours ago, Nailbender said:

I tried going back. I can't seem to find what you're referring to? What is "barbaric and unacceptable"?

Gun violence

[Nailbender]

38 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Gun violence

Agreed. Most violence is.

[Plasmodium]

8 hours ago, jross said:

The data is what it is.

This is a silly discussion, to be honest.  Without even mentioning the unique horror involved, school shootings alone produce more gun violence numbers than most of our peers and few of those happen in urban areas.

[jross]

It is silly that the emotions get the best of facts.  
 

Quote

The statistical likelihood of any given public school student being killed by a gun, in school, on any given day since 1999 was roughly 1 in 614,000,000. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/school-shootings-are-extraordinarily-rare-why-is-fear-of-them-driving-policy/2018/03/08/f4ead9f2-2247-11e8-94da-ebf9d112159c_story.html

Search it in https://www.removepaywall.com/article/current

[Plasmodium]

46 minutes ago, jross said:

It is silly that the emotions get the best of facts.  
 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/school-shootings-are-extraordinarily-rare-why-is-fear-of-them-driving-policy/2018/03/08/f4ead9f2-2247-11e8-94da-ebf9d112159c_story.html

Search it in https://www.removepaywall.com/article/current

My point is that school shootings are not rare. One is too many.   The US has had hundreds of them.  Each and every one perpetrated with a gun.  That IS a problem with guns.

 

[Bigbrog]

8 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

My point is that school shootings are not rare. One is too many.   The US has had hundreds of them.  Each and every one perpetrated with a gun.  That IS a problem with guns.

 

I agree that one school shooting is to many.  However, you fall short by blaming an inadamant object.  People kill people...people who want to kill people will find a way to kill people.  The root cause to the problem is not ban guns, but fix people.  The problem with that, is it is EXTREMELY complicated thing and nearly impossible to do instantly.  Not to go down another rabbit hole but to me the root cause is parenting and societal norms.  Anyway, back to the gun debate...I am a gun owner, I believe in the 2nd amendment and not the basterdized emotional nonsense about it that the media and political talking heads try and twist what it says and means; however, I am also for sensible gun laws and background checks...not that I think it will reduce gun violence but it is a great responsibility to own one and it should be treated as such.  Our great FREE country was founded on these principles (the consititution) and we wouldn't be the best country in the world without sticking to them.  Do we have problems as a country...ABSOLUTELY...do we have a troubling and disturbing past...ABSOLUTELY...but we always have learned, adapted, and gotten better....hence we are still far and above the best country in the world.  And the great thing about our country is you can come and go as you please...and I don't say that with the attitude "if you don't like it hear get out of the USA"...I say it as how great it is that we have that FREEDOM!  Funny how people want to take some of that away.  Anyway, again back to the topic, people tend to be WAY to emotional and uneducated (in terms of guns) to be able to have an open and honest discussion about it.

[Plasmodium]

25 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

I agree that one school shooting is to many.  However, you fall short by blaming an inadamant object.  People kill people...people who want to kill people will find a way to kill people.  The root cause to the problem is not ban guns, but fix people.  The problem with that, is it is EXTREMELY complicated thing and nearly impossible to do instantly.  Not to go down another rabbit hole but to me the root cause is parenting and societal norms.  Anyway, back to the gun debate...I am a gun owner, I believe in the 2nd amendment and not the basterdized emotional nonsense about it that the media and political talking heads try and twist what it says and means; however, I am also for sensible gun laws and background checks...not that I think it will reduce gun violence but it is a great responsibility to own one and it should be treated as such.  Our great FREE country was founded on these principles (the consititution) and we wouldn't be the best country in the world without sticking to them.  Do we have problems as a country...ABSOLUTELY...do we have a troubling and disturbing past...ABSOLUTELY...but we always have learned, adapted, and gotten better....hence we are still far and above the best country in the world.  And the great thing about our country is you can come and go as you please...and I don't say that with the attitude "if you don't like it hear get out of the USA"...I say it as how great it is that we have that FREEDOM!  Funny how people want to take some of that away.  Anyway, again back to the topic, people tend to be WAY to emotional and uneducated (in terms of guns) to be able to have an open and honest discussion about it.

Agreed, it is extremely complex.  Mental health issues, rampant narcissism, the founding fathers having muskets and HS students have AR15s.

The discussion is boiling down to whether there is a gun problem in areas that don't often experience gun violence.  I say yes and offer an absurdly obvious example.  Now waiting for the comparison of heart disease and school shootings......

[jross]

It is 50x more data-driven and logical to raise concern over drowning in swimming pools and falling furniture than school shootings.  School shootings are awful, yet rare.  The news covers it because of the emotional engagement it drives and profits.  Unfortunately, the coverage causes more harm than good, including unwarranted anxiety and copycat behavior.  Who profits from school shooting news?  The gun manufacturer, security firms, news firms, and politicians.

    

[El Luchador]

42 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Agreed, it is extremely complex.  Mental health issues, rampant narcissism, the founding fathers having muskets and HS students have AR15s.

The discussion is boiling down to whether there is a gun problem in areas that don't often experience gun violence.  I say yes and offer an absurdly obvious example.  Now waiting for the comparison of heart disease and school shootings......

How about drug deaths? Clearly killing more kids and already 100% illegal. 

[Nailbender]

52 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Agreed, it is extremely complex.  Mental health issues, rampant narcissism, the founding fathers having muskets and HS students have AR15s.

The discussion is boiling down to whether there is a gun problem in areas that don't often experience gun violence.  I say yes and offer an absurdly obvious example.  Now waiting for the comparison of heart disease and school shootings......

What would you like to see happen to prevent gun violence?

[Bigbrog]

2 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Agreed, it is extremely complex.  Mental health issues, rampant narcissism, the founding fathers having muskets and HS students have AR15s.

The discussion is boiling down to whether there is a gun problem in areas that don't often experience gun violence.  I say yes and offer an absurdly obvious example.  Now waiting for the comparison of heart disease and school shootings......

Agree....EXCEPT...I just have to point out that in an argument you instantly lose credibility regurgitating the tiresome "the founding fathers had muskets and not AR15's".  You do realize that when the 2nd was written, EVERYONE had muskets, which includes the government, military, and the British??  That incorrect argument you just spewed only holds water if our military still only had muskets.  Our military has FAR more advanced weapons than the general population, so an AR15 is something that we SHOULD be able to own as a private citizen to uphold the intent of the 2nd amendment...especially considering an AR15 is no different than most other rifles except how they look...and people like to use AR15's as a talking point due to ignorance about guns and as an emotional heart tug when the facts are not convenient to them and their narrative.  People would be more sincere, if they just said they don't understand or have guns and just don't like them.

[Plasmodium]

18 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Agree....EXCEPT...I just have to point out that in an argument you instantly lose credibility regurgitating the tiresome "the founding fathers had muskets and not AR15's".  You do realize that when the 2nd was written, EVERYONE had muskets, which includes the government, military, and the British??  That incorrect argument you just spewed only holds water if our military still only had muskets.  Our military has FAR more advanced weapons than the general population, so an AR15 is something that we SHOULD be able to own as a private citizen to uphold the intent of the 2nd amendment...especially considering an AR15 is no different than most other rifles except how they look...and people like to use AR15's as a talking point due to ignorance about guns and as an emotional heart tug when the facts are not convenient to them and their narrative.  People would be more sincere, if they just said they don't understand or have guns and just don't like them.

I assume you have a weapon or weapon class that militaries can have and civilians cannot.  At a minimum, nuclear weapons.  My weapon class is different than yours, I think.

When did emotions stop driving societies?   Why should it?  Freedom is emotion.  Free will is just pursuit of emotions  People don't want to live in fear.  Living life in a cage, with three armed guards, one way in, one way out.  It is awful.  One of the worst things about this epidemic is that we are becoming anesthetized and the shootings are normalized.  Columbine shocked the entire planet.  Leaders and people from around the world sent thoughts, prayers and condolences.  For weeks.   Now, we are not even surprised much less shocked.  The rest of the world laughs and points out the one thing that distinguishes us.

 

[Bigbrog]

1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

I assume you have a weapon or weapon class that militaries can have and civilians cannot.  At a minimum, nuclear weapons.  My weapon class is different than yours, I think.

When did emotions stop driving societies?   Why should it?  Freedom is emotion.  Free will is just pursuit of emotions  People don't want to live in fear.  Living life in a cage, with three armed guards, one way in, one way out.  It is awful.  One of the worst things about this epidemic is that we are becoming anesthetized and the shootings are normalized.  Columbine shocked the entire planet.  Leaders and people from around the world sent thoughts, prayers and condolences.  For weeks.   Now, we are not even surprised much less shocked.  The rest of the world laughs and points out the one thing that distinguishes us.

 

I have no idea what your first few sentences mean??  

Anyway, again, somewhat agree with the first couple of sentences in your second paragraph but then lose me again.  Emotions are absolutely necessary to help people make decisions in life and should be part of the Freedom we expect out of our society...I am merely pointing out that it is ridiculous to use ONLY emotions to make decisions and/or opinions.  Also, I am not sure how you have come to the conclusion that we "are becoming anesthetized" and "the shootings are normalized"?  In my opinion, the problem is a portion of our society and politicians make shootings into a circus by instantly blaming and inadement object.  Instead of understanding all the underlying things that lead up to it and also refusing to do the "hard things" to truly try and make an impact on making this less common than it already is.  People get caught up in the tiresome arguments on both sides leaving no discussion or conversations about what really would help the problem.  In my opinion, we as a society are losing the ability to hold people accountable...everyone else and everything else is to blame for one's actions.  More importantly, we as a society stopped teaching our kids self-accountability and taking responsibility for their actions.  Just one poor mans opinion.

[Plasmodium]

5 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

I have no idea what your first few sentences mean??  

Anyway, again, somewhat agree with the first couple of sentences in your second paragraph but then lose me again.  Emotions are absolutely necessary to help people make decisions in life and should be part of the Freedom we expect out of our society...I am merely pointing out that it is ridiculous to use ONLY emotions to make decisions and/or opinions.  Also, I am not sure how you have come to the conclusion that we "are becoming anesthetized" and "the shootings are normalized"?  In my opinion, the problem is a portion of our society and politicians make shootings into a circus by instantly blaming and inadement object.  Instead of understanding all the underlying things that lead up to it and also refusing to do the "hard things" to truly try and make an impact on making this less common than it already is.  People get caught up in the tiresome arguments on both sides leaving no discussion or conversations about what really would help the problem.  In my opinion, we as a society are losing the ability to hold people accountable...everyone else and everything else is to blame for one's actions.  More importantly, we as a society stopped teaching our kids self-accountability and taking responsibility for their actions.  Just one poor mans opinion.

It means that we agree on limitations of weapons in society - that the government is better armed than civilians.  I think weapons of war do not belong in the hands of civilians.  It is not the inanimate object to blame for school shootings.  It is the inevitable, invariable fact that they wind up in the hands of people who use them to kill innocents and subsequently reshape our society into a bastardization of itself.

With regard to normalization - you are lying to yourself if say you are shocked when 10 kids are murdered in school.  We all know it is going happen again and again.

[Bigbrog]

4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

It means that we agree on limitations of weapons in society - that the government is better armed than civilians.  I think weapons of war do not belong in the hands of civilians.  It is not the inanimate object to blame for school shootings.  It is the inevitable, invariable fact that they wind up in the hands of people who use them to kill innocents and subsequently reshape our society into a bastardization of itself.

With regard to normalization - you are lying to yourself if say you are shocked when 10 kids are murdered in school.  We all know it is going happen again and again.

So question...do you think we should just get rid of the 2nd amendment, and it no longer holds water in today's society because the government has way more advanced weapons then we do?  This isn't a trick question.  And at the same time, one of your reason is because someone who wants to do bad things to innocent people won't have access to a LEGAL gun so there won't be any more school shootings, or shootings of innocent people period?

I think you and I, and probably 99% of the people in the US would agree, someone who wants to do bad things to innocent people should be stopped from doing so.  Am I safe to assume your solution to it is to ban guns?  My supposed solution is WAY more complicated than that...but can comfortably say we should NOT ban guns.  Rabbit hole warning....whether people want to believe it or not, our free society was built around it's private citizens being able to arm and defend themselves both on a personal level and against governmental tyranny.  My point is you can't pick and choose what works and what doesn't work (constitution) when it ALL worked together in order to make us the best country and most free country in the world.  

I see you didn't address the emotional thing when making decisions and opinions??  And by the way...you are lying to yourself to even begin to assume you know how I feel when there is a school shooting or what I will feel if there is another one.  That is an absolutely silly and ridiculous comment to make.  I am desensitized to NO killing of an innocent person!

Bottom line...you don't like guns, then don't own one...period.  It is my right and will always be my right to own one...period.  And it is your right to make your decisions and opinions based purely on emotion and it is my right to use both emotion, logic, FACTS and DATA to make mine.

[Bigbrog]

By the way @Plasmodium ...I do enjoy this back and forth even though we clearly disagree on some things.  You have done a very good job at not turning to the argument practice of trying to insult me personally (like some on here like to do).  I have no problem when someone disagrees with my opinion, or take on things, and can have a well-intended conversation.  I sure hope I have not made any personal insults towards you, and if I did I apologize.

[Plasmodium]

There is no solution, much less mine.  I do not want to ban guns entirely.  Assault rifles, yes I want them removed from civilian society.

We need barriers to ownership that a casual or irresponsible user won't or can't go through - safety, knowledge, responsibility, certification, mental health evaluation.  Red flag laws.  Sanity in the type of gun sold and owned.  Minimum of 21.  Federal laws that supercede state laws.  Verifiable storage requirements.

Out of curiosity, anybody know what is required to shoot the first round in the military?  Training?  Certification?

[mspart]

I don't have an answer on the military question.   But I do have a question on what you consider to be an assault rifle.  If you want them removed, they have to be identified. 

mspart

[Bigbrog]

4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

There is no solution, much less mine.  I do not want to ban guns entirely.  Assault rifles, yes I want them removed from civilian society.

We need barriers to ownership that a casual or irresponsible user won't or can't go through - safety, knowledge, responsibility, certification, mental health evaluation.  Red flag laws.  Sanity in the type of gun sold and owned.  Minimum of 21.  Federal laws that supercede state laws.  Verifiable storage requirements.

Out of curiosity, anybody know what is required to shoot the first round in the military?  Training?  Certification?

Agree with your first sentence in reference to my opinion on the matter too.  Could get on board with most of what you wrote; however, I am not sure how you define "assault rifle" as there is no such thing.  Some rifles look different aesthetically, but by all accounts are the same as a majority of hunting rifles in terms of how fast they can shoot and ability to shoot multiple rounds.  Sorry to burst your bubble but there are no such thing as "assault rifles".  This is a made-up label the media and politicians created to scare people who don't understand guns.  People think because guns look different, they perform, or are used differently.  What you want to ban is what my dad has used gun hunting for probably 10 years.  My .270 probably could do more damage than his AR.  Also, I disagree with the minimum age of 21...at 18 you are an adult and thus should be able to purchase a gun.

[mspart]

I believe WA State is passing a law to limit assault weapons.  https://www.opb.org/article/2022/12/20/washington-state-democrats-propose-gun-limits-purchase-permit/

Assault weapon is an inexact term describing a group of high-powered guns or semi-automatic long rifles, like an AR-15, that can fire 30 rounds quickly without reloading.

To me this is wrong headed.   They have already banned magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.   So those cannot be purchased in WA.    Now they want to ban a gun that can fire 30 rounds without reloading.  Well, they just did that by banning any magazine holding more than 10 rounds.  So why now ban the gun?   This is not a matter of safety anymore, they have that.   This is a matter of wanting to control guns. 

As a matter of fact, I have a Ruger Mini 14 Ranch rifle. 

Is this an assault weapon?  

mspart

[Nailbender]

@Plasmodium Please help me to understand your point of view. I'd like to discuss this, I think we both think it's important.

What makes a gun a weapon of war or an assault rifle? Do you think that's an important distinction? If we're going to ban them, I do.

Do those weapons kill people more than other weapons? Do they somehow make it easier to kill people? Are they somehow more dangerous? Again, I think these answers matter.

If these weapons are banned as you would like to see, what happens when school shooters use more pistols or shotguns? Ban them too or another solution?

You really aren't shocked when someone kills 10 innocent children? I will always be shocked, I'll never understand that. In fact, I think I'm more shocked and disgusted each time.

I have more questions but I really hope you or someone who feels the same way you do would answer these first few.