scourge165 Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 4 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Think about that for a second. The post I was responding to said that the Big 10 gets screwed by wrestling each other, but Brooks' lose was a non-conference match. I've thought about it as long as I care to. I was responding to your statement that you don't think ANYONE has any problem with Parker Keckeisen as the #1 seed. Well...I do. 2X defending Champ, won the B1Gs when Keckeisen was a Sr in HS as a True Freshmen. He's got 3 losses in his career. Keckeisen and Hidlay ALSO have losses this year. No good reason for Brooks to NOT be the #1 seed. There's very little common sense used in these seedings. @PortaJohn follows up by saying because he "only" Wrestled X number of matches, he was seeded where he should have been...despite being the best in his weight and probably top 3 pound for pound. So he knows it's stupid as well. He's saying it right there. He's proven he's the best at this weight. Look at Brooks matches this year? They're mostly top 20 except for Iowa(not his fault), should have been, Wisconsin...and 2 of his first 3 vs Lock Haven and...someone else. Keckeisen has 6 total. So in fewer matches Wrestling in the B1G, Brooks has more quality wins. And a lot of Keckeisen's big wins are over B1G Wrestlers in much closer matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Stupid or not. It's the formula at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. PeanutButter Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Ironic that you say you can't look at one situation and then look at one situation. I am not looking at one situation. I am looking at the totality of all situations. And when you do that you see that Big 10 wrestlers get seeded higher in spite of their loses. They should be seeded even higher. And wrestlers in weaker conferences should be seeded even lower. There are nonsense seeds in every bracket because of a seeding formula that is overly complicated. Get rid of conference placement (and, possibly, win % too) and just seed based on a wrestler's record and his opponent's record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royalfan Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Conference championship or not having weight in seeding is asinine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortaJohn Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 1 hour ago, scourge165 said: I've thought about it as long as I care to. I was responding to your statement that you don't think ANYONE has any problem with Parker Keckeisen as the #1 seed. Well...I do. 2X defending Champ, won the B1Gs when Keckeisen was a Sr in HS as a True Freshmen. He's got 3 losses in his career. Keckeisen and Hidlay ALSO have losses this year. No good reason for Brooks to NOT be the #1 seed. There's very little common sense used in these seedings. @PortaJohn follows up by saying because he "only" Wrestled X number of matches, he was seeded where he should have been...despite being the best in his weight and probably top 3 pound for pound. So he knows it's stupid as well. He's saying it right there. He's proven he's the best at this weight. Look at Brooks matches this year? They're mostly top 20 except for Iowa(not his fault), should have been, Wisconsin...and 2 of his first 3 vs Lock Haven and...someone else. Keckeisen has 6 total. So in fewer matches Wrestling in the B1G, Brooks has more quality wins. And a lot of Keckeisen's big wins are over B1G Wrestlers in much closer matches. It's pretty simple. 1) Keck & Hidlay split with Keck having the most recent win 2) Keck beat Coleman 3) AB had a lapse in judgement and lost to Coleman 4) AB gets the #3 seed 5) It's wrong but the formula doesn't account prior year results nor the All Star Classic 6) AB is still the best wrestler in the weight but they can only seed based on the results they have for this year 7) If Brooks and Hidlay meet in the semis and the refs do their jobs Hidlay will get stalled out of the match 3 I Don't Agree With What I Posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 23 minutes ago, PortaJohn said: It's pretty simple. It really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_Taco Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Ironic that you say you can't look at one situation and then look at one situation. I am not looking at one situation. I am looking at the totality of all situations. And when you do that you see that Big 10 wrestlers get seeded higher in spite of their loses. I think you need to look up the definition of irony because you aren't using it correctly: Is Ironic The Most Abused Word In English? Either way, I literally took the first weight. Do you think Orine gets the 5 seed at 133 wrestling a BT schedule? How about Henson at 149? Think he's only losing 3 times wrestling Sasso, Gomez, Yahya, Murin, Van Ness, etc? I don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHROMEBIRD Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 The seeding formula sucks. Askren is right that there needs to be a common sense committee so we're not so beholden to an algorithm that doesn't necessarily do the sport any favors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Iowa should wrestle the tournament under protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said: The seeding formula sucks. Askren is right that there needs to be a common sense committee so we're not so beholden to an algorithm that doesn't necessarily do the sport any favors. That's really what it comes down to. Just basic common sense. Yianni was the #2 seed this past weekend. I understand how the ridiculous way we seed works...and I have a problem with it. I don't see where that is conflicting. When everyone can plainly state they KNOW Brooks is the best in the weight and he's the 3 seed when 3 guys have 1 loss, it's silly. He lost to a guy that Keck beat. I don't care. He's beaten Keck and he's...again, won multiple National Titles at this weight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said: there needs to be a common sense committee Imagine that train wreck. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 It might have been worse last year. A 10 and a 15 seed made it to the finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. PeanutButter Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 21 minutes ago, ionel said: Iowa should wrestle the tournament under protest. You really think this whole conversation is about Iowa? No one here is complaining about Iowa's seed, that has been established numerous times. You're usually sharper than this 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, Offthemat said: It might have been worse last year. A 10 and a 15 seed made it to the finals. That shouldn't be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 1 minute ago, Mr. PeanutButter said: You really think this whole conversation is about Iowa? No one here is complaining about Iowa's seed, that has been established numerous times. You're usually sharper than this Sorry ... thought we were on topic ... my bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmoney Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 On 3/9/2023 at 10:16 AM, Mr. PeanutButter said: They're not the best seeds but they're ok. I wish they would do away with conference placement as a criteria. Or at least reduce its weight in the matrix. I do not understand why some goon who wrestles cans all year should be seeded higher than, let's say, a returning finalist who took a couple losses to the #1 guy (not referring to this year, just posing a hypothetical) I may be totally off here, but I think the number of matches you’ve won at Nationals, quarterfinals, and prior All American status should count for 20% of your rating. I know it’s not about the past but the past is way more predictive than your conference performance. If conference tourneys are so important they should just replace Midlands with them. So people can wrestle mid year hope for the best and heal recover for nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHROMEBIRD Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 23 minutes ago, MPhillips said: Imagine that train wreck. I'd rather have an imperfect system that does the sport good than one that doesn't. The algorithm right now rewards ducking, penalizes conference strength, and sets up brackets with conference matches that we've already seen during the season. Even if a committe doesn't get the seeding right, it could fix some of these basic flaws in the formula. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 22 minutes ago, ionel said: That shouldn't be allowed. I don’t know what these kids today are thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 17 minutes ago, jmoney said: I may be totally off here, but I think the number of matches you’ve won at Nationals, quarterfinals, and prior All American status should count for 20% of your rating. I know it’s not about the past but the past is way more predictive than your conference performance. If conference tourneys are so important they should just replace Midlands with them. So people can wrestle mid year hope for the best and heal recover for nationals. I don't think you're off at all. This seems like it's sensitive subject, but again...just want to point out the absurdity of seeding Yianni #2 in his own conference. I can't wait for Carter Starocci to be a 4X defending National Champ...coming off an Olympic Gold. He injury defaults a match after turning an ankle early in the year and ends up...as a #4 seed because we've banned rationale thought from the seeding process! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 34 minutes ago, ionel said: That shouldn't be allowed. A 6th year Sr who was Wrestling in his first NCAA Tournament and a Soph who went 1-2 the previous year with a SV win over the 28 seed. I...yeah, I can't spot the difference between that and Aaron Brooks as the 3 seed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 1 hour ago, CHROMEBIRD said: Askren is right that there needs to be a common sense committee Ironic because Ben Askren would absolutely not be a fan of pretty much any opinion that a Common Sense Committee would put forward. 1 i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 2 hours ago, MPhillips said: Stupid or not. It's the formula at hand. Stop that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 4 hours ago, Jamie_Taco said: I think you need to look up the definition of irony because you aren't using it correctly: Is Ironic The Most Abused Word In English? Either way, I literally took the first weight. Do you think Orine gets the 5 seed at 133 wrestling a BT schedule? How about Henson at 149? Think he's only losing 3 times wrestling Sasso, Gomez, Yahya, Murin, Van Ness, etc? I don't The irony keeps piling up. Not only did I use ironic correctly, but you incorrectly posted an article about the incorrect use of irony. Are you starting to see the irony? I doubt it. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortaJohn Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: The irony keeps piling up. Not only did I use ironic correctly, but you incorrectly posted an article about the incorrect use of irony. Are you starting to see the irony? I doubt it. It's like rain on your wedding day. It's a free ride when you've already paid. It's the good advice that you just didn't take And who would've thought... it figures Edited March 12, 2023 by PortaJohn 1 I Don't Agree With What I Posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 Imagine not just favoring the top 5% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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