LJB Posted February 27, 2023 Author Share Posted February 27, 2023 2 hours ago, LJB said: valencia lands out of bounds after his sloppy shot... no counters out of bounds... he breaks his lock... he does not end up in a position to even consider a TD, which, even in the middle of the mat if that goes down and valencia ended up covering the hips then it would just be 1 for a reversal... i legitimately have no idea what they saw, but, they looked at it for awhile and surely with better angles than we got on the live feed... regardless... it just meant he lost by less... so... chatting with our states head ref... had a few things to talk about and decided i would just run this whole valencia thing by him... he watched the action and immediately said 4-0 red... he then sends me this pic... red breaks his lock and is in danger... i can see 4-2 based on red's lock breaking which to be honest, i never even looked at previously... it feels chintzy and not "inthe spirit" of the rules, but, i can see watching a replay over and over again and coming up with that score... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 27, 2023 Author Share Posted February 27, 2023 the other interesting tidbit that he brought up about international refs in general that i had heard previously but never really contemplated much past a simple acknowledgment... to be a UWW ref, their rules say you must be your country's highest level of reffing before you are 40 then you can apply for a UWW license... in america... refs progress from M3 to M1... many countries have no system of progression for the officials... point being, (what the US would consider) an M3 ref could apply for UWW consideration... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Tough match. mspart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crotalus Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 so... chatting with our states head ref... had a few things to talk about and decided i would just run this whole valencia thing by him... he watched the action and immediately said 4-0 red... he then sends me this pic... red breaks his lock and is in danger... i can see 4-2 based on red's lock breaking which to be honest, i never even looked at previously... it feels chintzy and not "inthe spirit" of the rules, but, i can see watching a replay over and over again and coming up with that score... I don't think the screenshot tells the story here. I think Zahid would have had to do something to earn the exposure, such as stopping the motion of the roll while Ukr was in danger. But they rolled through the chest wrap about a cleanly as you can. You wouldn't give the defensive wrestler 2 on a gut wrench if the offensive wrestler broke his lock while on his back but continued through the motion unimpeded by the defensive wrestler. He would have to stop the offensive wrestler's motion. (Not completely analogous situations, but you get my point.)But, as I mentioned above, the only scenario I see as possible, barring a more egregious scoring error, is for them to have given Zahid a 2 pt exposure after the 4 pt throw. So perhaps you're right, and while watching frame by frame during the challenge, they saw something that didn't really happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 If I’m on the whistle that is 4-0 red 100 times out of 100… I don’t like the call they ended up with but can see how… and that is the rub of replay… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Finally catching up. MFS - McKenna needs to either get a haircut or quit shaking his head every 10 seconds. It’s the championship match of a senior rankings tourney and every detail counted. i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 7 hours ago, bnwtwg said: McKenna needs to either get a haircut or quit shaking his head every 10 seconds. Don't watch Valencia... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 18 minutes ago, MPhillips said: Don't watch Valencia... He doesn't have the gas tank to fix his mullet after the first period i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 19 minutes ago, bnwtwg said: He doesn't have the gas tank to fix his mullet after the first period i guess that is what passes for a mullet these days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 47 minutes ago, LJB said: passes for a mullet No comparison to what I had going on in 1986. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 7 minutes ago, MPhillips said: No comparison to what I had going on in 1986. i am pretty sure i have confessed to this before... but... i was so white trash i had a mullet AND a rat tail in '86... don't be jelly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Luchador Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 17 hours ago, LJB said: the other interesting tidbit that he brought up about international refs in general that i had heard previously but never really contemplated much past a simple acknowledgment... to be a UWW ref, their rules say you must be your country's highest level of reffing before you are 40 then you can apply for a UWW license... in america... refs progress from M3 to M1... many countries have no system of progression for the officials... point being, (what the US would consider) an M3 ref could apply for UWW consideration... We don't need US refs F'ing up international wrestling. We have 1 guy that belongs on the whistle outside of this country. They should try watching a little international wrestling first. US refs do harm to our international greco success by forcing guys to Wrestle an American style of greco that doesn't work against the rest of the world especially when called by refs who understand what they are seeing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 9 minutes ago, El Luchador said: We don't need US refs F'ing up international wrestling. We have 1 guy that belongs on the whistle outside of this country. They should try watching a little international wrestling first. US refs do harm to our international greco success by forcing guys to Wrestle an American style of greco that doesn't work against the rest of the world especially when called by refs who understand what they are seeing. you are not necessarily wrong... i would say several guys, but, the sentiment is not wrong... it makes me crazy at every national tourney the way i see greco officiated... and then the majority of the officials look at greco like the majority of other "fans" in this country, so, it is a constant battle... but... it is what we have, so, athletes have to be made to understand what is going to happen and act accordingly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Luchador Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Is there video of this Valencia match with the questionable call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Luchador Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 If Zahid perfectly executes he doesn't expose himself, so points against him are warranted. It was his move and he initiated. I'm my viewbthats the standard 4-2 we see all the time. If it was done at the edge of the mat then it's 4-0. You need to be careful punishing the aggressor or wrestlers will shut down. Award the aggressor, it's a fundamental principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailbender Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 2 hours ago, LJB said: i am pretty sure i have confessed to this before... but... i was so white trash i had a mullet AND a rat tail in '86... don't be jelly... My grandmother paid me $1/inch to cut the rat tail off. She was a wise and generous woman. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crotalus Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) We don't need US refs F'ing up international wrestling. We have 1 guy that belongs on the whistle outside of this country. They should try watching a little international wrestling first. US refs do harm to our international greco success by forcing guys to Wrestle an American style of greco that doesn't work against the rest of the world especially when called by refs who understand what they are seeing. I would argue that's a reason to get more of our refs on the international scene. It would be better if the refs that work our domestic tournaments (at least our top tier refs) had international experience and training, then they would call the domestic matches the way they would be called overseas. And hopefully that would precipitate down to our less experienced referees. (Trickle down. Doesn't work in economics, but might work in refereeing.) If Zahid perfectly executes he doesn't expose himself, so points against him are warranted. It was his move and he initiated. I'm my viewbthats the standard 4-2 we see all the time. If it was done at the edge of the mat then it's 4-0. You need to be careful punishing the aggressor or wrestlers will shut down. Award the aggressor, it's a fundamental principle. It was on the edge of the mat. But regardless, if Ukr gets 4 (the right call imo), then that became his move, and he is allowed to expose his back in the process. Zahid needed to do something to earn exposure pts after that. They should not just be giving away free points for aggression (though perhaps now there is some sort of emphasis to do so). One thing that really separates free from folk that a lot of our guys struggle with is the need to maintain control throughout those positions so you don't get exposed. If you are over aggressive, you will give up points. I also think we typically see 4-2 when the guy taking the shot gets a 4 pt feet-to-back but then gets wrapped over for 2 from the defensive wrestler. That is how the ref originally scored it, but was switched upon review. Edited February 28, 2023 by Crotalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 the stall fest rewards sloppy shots... real wrestling penalizes sloppy shots... our guys grow up thinking a bad/sloppy/half shot is some sort of real action... don't even get me started on leg passing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Zahid took the shot but stalled. The other guy I think actually initiated the move. I see 4-0. It was a nice counter to a stalled shot. That said, Zahid is looking big. mspart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 35 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Fake headlock to the behind the back duck, double. Judo-esque right? I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Luchador Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: I can't even figure out what I just saw so I'll call it 5 blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 25 minutes ago, El Luchador said: I can't even figure out what I just saw so I'll call it 5 blue. Me and you both. But whatever it is called, I love it. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 9 hours ago, MPhillips said: Fake headlock to the behind the back duck, double. Judo-esque right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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