Wrestleknownothing Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) After reading a thread on HR about where Spencer Lee stands in the pantheon of four timers I decided to take a look at 100%ers instead. Since 1928 there have been 20 wrestlers who won all the titles they were eligible for (yes, I am including Spencer Lee and Yianni Dikomihalis because it is a 100%-slam dunk-guarantee they will win their fourth - you heard it here first). For these 20 I looked at a variety of metrics that I thought were important. For dominance I looked at bonus points per NCAA match (using today's scoring system), pinfall %, and career win %. But I also wanted to measure permanence. In the early days they wrestled very few matches. And I think this matters. It is easier to win 25 straight matches than it is to win 100 straight. So I included total NCAA matches wrestled, total career wins, and total career pinfalls. Some metrics favor the old and some favor the new. To adjust for this reasonable people might weigh these metrics differently than I did. Or include other metrics. Or exclude these metrics. There are choices. What I did was count the number of times a wrestler appears in the top quartile and sort by that count. To break ties I sorted by the average rank. I fully expect Iowa and Cornell fans to absolutely hate this post. Homework: How do you feel about where the two newest four timers stand? Would you include three for three wrestlers in your list? Why or why not? Edited February 22, 2023 by Wrestleknownothing 5 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. PeanutButter Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Thanks for putting this together as always. The discussion on HR is an interesting one. As big of a Spencer Lee fan as I am, I can't deny that the loss to Picc by Pin puts a major damper on any "goat of goats" talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Bryant Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Where's Gray Simons? 2 Insert catchy tagline here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headshuck Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Losses didn’t make the spreadsheet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 16 minutes ago, headshuck said: Losses didn’t make the spreadsheet? Why would any with losses be on a goat spreadsheet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 22, 2023 Author Share Posted February 22, 2023 36 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said: Where's Gray Simons? A pox upon me. I used the wrong data set for my starting point. I started with the highest scoring wrestlers at the NCAA tourney. Gray was not among the top 222. I will fix this. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 22, 2023 Author Share Posted February 22, 2023 19 minutes ago, headshuck said: Losses didn’t make the spreadsheet? They did via the win %. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchapman Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Winning 25 straight vs 100 straight is easier if the relative competition is similar. But what if someone wins 25 straight against only the best competition vs 100 against some great and some not so great competition? Then the comparison gets muddier. 1 Craig Henning got screwed in the 2007 NCAA Finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crotalus Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Thanks for putting this together as always. The discussion on HR is an interesting one. As big of a Spencer Lee fan as I am, I can't deny that the loss to Picc by Pin puts a major damper on any "goat of goats" talk. I agree, but maybe he also gets a boost when you adjust for intact ligament percentage per NCAA title? That would also boost Yianni a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headshuck Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 I like the spreadsheet with Gable Steveson on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcement Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Congratulations to the Peery family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 29 minutes ago, headshuck said: I like the spreadsheet with Gable Steveson on it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 1 hour ago, jchapman said: Winning 25 straight vs 100 straight is easier if the relative competition is similar. But what if someone wins 25 straight against only the best competition vs 100 against some great and some not so great competition? Then the comparison gets muddier. In the early days of the tournament it was a very regional national tournament as travel costs were a big issue, so not everyone was there. They even took the profits from the tournament to rebate portions of the train fair for all of the participants (55 1/3 cents in 1929). As a result some brackets were tiny. We even have a third place finisher who went 0-2. All in all, it is really hard to make the case that all of the best are at a tournament when there are physical and financial impediments. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 Mea Culpa Forgive me data for I have sinned. There are sins of commission and sins of omission. I have committed the latter. My original data table was missing FOUR undefeated wrestlers (thank you @Jason Bryant for catching my error). You should never trust me again. Read everything critically. That said, trust me, this time I got it right (I hope). FYI, top quartile is now top 6. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 45 minutes ago, flyingcement said: Congratulations to the Peery family Yep. 9 for 9. Pretty amazing. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 1 hour ago, headshuck said: I like the spreadsheet with Gable Steveson on it. Shall I add Anthony Cassar as well? Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headshuck Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Shall I add Anthony Cassar as well?Sure it’s your sheet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocraTease Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 If Wrestleknownothing keeps this up, he may become a candidate for GOAT Of Wrestling Statistics. Maybe FLO or Intermat or USA Wrestling should hire this fellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 While I agree the 3 for 3’ers should be included in the discussion, don’t they have a slight advantage in this data because freshmen tend to have more losses/less bonus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 18 minutes ago, SocraTease said: If Wrestleknownothing keeps this up, he may become a candidate for GOAT Of Wrestling Statistics. Maybe FLO or Intermat or USA Wrestling should hire this fellow. Everyone thinks he works alone but I found this photo of Wkn and his minions: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, 1032004 said: While I agree the 3 for 3’ers should be included in the discussion, don’t they have a slight advantage in this data because freshmen tend to have more losses/less bonus? I think so, yes. 22 of 30 who won 3 of 4 took the loss freshman year. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 16 minutes ago, ionel said: Everyone thinks he works alone but I found this photo of Wkn and his minions: You, sir, are a steely-eyed missile man. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Cinnabon Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 No way is Spencer GOAT Lee behind Logan Stieber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Bryant Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 55 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Mea Culpa Forgive me data for I have sinned. There are sins of commission and sins of omission. I have committed the latter. My original data table was missing FOUR undefeated wrestlers (thank you @Jason Bryant for catching my error). You should never trust me again. Read everything critically. That said, trust me, this time I got it right (I hope). FYI, top quartile is now top 6. I don't trust anyone who uses the word that shall not be named. Unless you're Pete Weber. 1 Insert catchy tagline here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said: I don't trust anyone who uses the word that shall not be named. Unless you're Pete Weber. Oh, you want to say it. You need to say it. Maybe start by going someplace remote and just whisper it into a cup. We can build slowly. Maybe use it at a party, or with the cashier at Starbucks. But it is probably best to start by saying both words with a pause in between and then work on shortening the pause by an imperceptible increment each day. It will be like watching a baby grow, but in reverse, Kyle Dake style. You won't even notice the tiny difference, but one day you will wake up and the two baby words have grown up into one big word. Trust me, it is liberating. I have a five year plan where I expect to hear it on the PA at the 2028 NCAA tournament. 1 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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