nhs67 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Cliff notes for those wanting to catch up: Bono 'Bad' You are all caught up now, gents. 1 "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 7 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Having listened to Askren on FRL talk about his youth coaching philosophy I think he means something like this (it is always risky speaking for others, but here goes). Askren does not believe in putting very young wrestlers in tournaments and traveling all over. I do not remember what he thinks is the appropriate age to start competitions, but it is older than many. He has also talked about having parents push him to change his philosophy, and he simply tells them no and perhaps another club would work better for them (and maybe not that diplomatically). He clearly knows what he is talking about, so it is hard for parents to challenge him on this. He has the personal results to back it up, and now he has the coaching results to back it up. As off the wall as Askren can act sometimes, and as strange as some of his takes are on other topics, when I listen to him talk about youth wrestling he makes a ton of sense. you can find any number of examples of this philosophy working as well as any number of examples of the dreaded "toxic parent" examples working... the only exception i take from askren's point of view is that others have done the opposite and had amazing results with happy kids... not everyone fits into these boxes that people are always trying to force them into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 28 minutes ago, nhs67 said: Cliff notes for those wanting to catch up: Bono 'Bad' You are all caught up now, gents. But is Bonno really to blame for both Burwikk and Teskke? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 11 hours ago, ionel said: But is Bonno really to blame for both Burwikk and Teskke? Bummo is at fault for everything bad, evil, and incompetent on this planet. 1 "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 2 hours ago, nhs67 said: Bummo is at fault for everything bad, evil, and incompetent on this planet. that is FLO... duh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, LJB said: that is FLO... duh... Flo and Bummo are actually the same person. Has anyone seen them in the same room at the same time - ever? "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 minute ago, nhs67 said: Flo and Bummo are actually the same person. Has anyone seen them in the same room at the same time - ever? and he would have got away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 17 hours ago, LJB said: you can find any number of examples of this philosophy working as well as any number of examples of the dreaded "toxic parent" examples working... the only exception i take from askren's point of view is that others have done the opposite and had amazing results with happy kids... not everyone fits into these boxes that people are always trying to force them into... The percentage on the toxic way working is pretty low… the amount of those kids staying in wrestling after they’re done.. is even less Long term sustainability is the goal. There is a lot of unnecessary running off of kids and making kids hate the sport. Again the word is “unnecessary” Quite frankly, the people who are okay with the toxic culture and parenting are never the high level athletes or coaches.. and they were high level at something else.. they never actually were put through the year round stuff at those younger ages. So they’ve “seen” a bunch but never actually done it. There’s a reason Askren is so consistently putting out high level athletes And I get your whole thing is being the niche sport guy inside of the niche sport 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, Formally140 said: The percentage on the toxic way working is pretty low… the amount of those kids staying in wrestling after they’re done.. is even less Long term sustainability is the goal. There is a lot of unnecessary running off of kids and making kids hate the sport. Again the word is “unnecessary” Quite frankly, the people who are okay with the toxic culture and parenting are never the high level athletes or coaches.. and they were high level at something else.. they never actually were put through the year round stuff at those younger ages. So they’ve “seen” a bunch but never actually done it. There’s a reason Askren is so consistently putting out high level athletes And I get your whole thing is being the niche sport guy inside of the niche sport all bold statements... i will take some exception to being labeled the "niche sport guy inside of the niche sport" because it is entirely too simplistic thinking... if anything i am the "niche' athlete within the niche' sport" guy which forces me to look at the angles differently than most... whatever... i don't begrudge others for their point of view... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 3 hours ago, nhs67 said: Flo and Bummo are actually the same person. Has anyone seen them in the same room at the same time - ever? FloBo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 7 hours ago, LJB said: all bold statements... i will take some exception to being labeled the "niche sport guy inside of the niche sport" because it is entirely too simplistic thinking... if anything i am the "niche' athlete within the niche' sport" guy which forces me to look at the angles differently than most... whatever... i don't begrudge others for their point of view... The way you defend some of the toxic aspects of the sport does surprise 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 14 hours ago, Formally140 said: The way you defend some of the toxic aspects of the sport does surprise "toxic" might just be a buzz word that people like to use when they are feeling salty about something... because i can 100% say with certainty i do not defend anything "toxic"... but... i also am not going to let the average define what "toxic" means to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 1 hour ago, LJB said: "toxic" might just be a buzz word that people like to use when they are feeling salty about something... because i can 100% say with certainty i do not defend anything "toxic"... but... i also am not going to let the average define what "toxic" means to me... Im not really salty about anything. It’s more so looking at things as they are and long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 9 minutes ago, Formally140 said: Im not really salty about anything. It’s more so looking at things as they are and long term. i use "you" more as a hypothetical... i understand how i approach things is not for everyone and that is by necessity... or design... or whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchapman Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) What some view as toxic, others might view as necessary. Just like the elite might view those calling them toxic, as average. It's all relative. Edited March 1, 2023 by jchapman 1 Craig Henning got screwed in the 2007 NCAA Finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 On 2/24/2023 at 1:30 PM, BuckyBadger said: Part of me wanted the same thing. I’m sure he would have been a great recruiter and gotten some serious talent in the room. But I can’t imagine he would have dealt well with the athletic department administrators etc I thought when he took over as club coach it would be the best of both worlds, he’d get top guys in the room, but not have to deal with head coaching duties outside of wrestling. Obviously, it wasn’t meant to be. I think if he'd have gotten the job, UW would probably be competing with Iowa right now. But he'd end up feuding with the University or...something. Askren and Messenbrink are both College caliber coaches(though, if he was the HC, you'd want one of them to run AWA and I think Messenbrink is the true genius behind that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 On 2/27/2023 at 9:10 AM, Wrestleknownothing said: Having listened to Askren on FRL talk about his youth coaching philosophy I think he means something like this (it is always risky speaking for others, but here goes). Askren does not believe in putting very young wrestlers in tournaments and traveling all over. I do not remember what he thinks is the appropriate age to start competitions, but it is older than many. He has also talked about having parents push him to change his philosophy, and he simply tells them no and perhaps another club would work better for them (and maybe not that diplomatically). He clearly knows what he is talking about, so it is hard for parents to challenge him on this. He has the personal results to back it up, and now he has the coaching results to back it up. As off the wall as Askren can act sometimes, and as strange as some of his takes are on other topics, when I listen to him talk about youth wrestling he makes a ton of sense. Yeah, but this is not real consistent on his behalf. I whole heartedly agree with this ideology. I think you should play multiple sports...at least as a kid. I played on a travel baseball team that played 70 games a season and was lucky to have a coach who'd let me miss some games for Fargo or Northern Plains and I could still get to some off-season practices around Baseball. And then Wrestling was fresh. It wasn't just going from the season into Freestyle and Greco and just continually grinding. And I'd also fit a tournament or two in-between Baseball and Football. Wasn't until I got older I realized how expensive this was and how lucky I was...and also probably not absolutely necessary, but the point is, I enjoyed all of them and it kept me pretty busy. Hell, I even went out for Tennis as a Jr and Sr(initially just to serve a sports suspension, but then I actually liked it). I started Wrestling at 4-5 years old, but never had that Dad who put pressure on me. Tournaments were kinda just, "hey, you wanna Wrestle this weekend?" This is an area in which I respect Askren's outward ideology, but...again, it doesn't really fit with his coaching style for his top kids. When he gets an real stud, he'll push that kid to focus on Wrestling and push them away from other sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 On 2/28/2023 at 11:21 AM, Formally140 said: The percentage on the toxic way working is pretty low… the amount of those kids staying in wrestling after they’re done.. is even less Long term sustainability is the goal. There is a lot of unnecessary running off of kids and making kids hate the sport. Again the word is “unnecessary” Quite frankly, the people who are okay with the toxic culture and parenting are never the high level athletes or coaches.. and they were high level at something else.. they never actually were put through the year round stuff at those younger ages. So they’ve “seen” a bunch but never actually done it. There’s a reason Askren is so consistently putting out high level athletes And I get your whole thing is being the niche sport guy inside of the niche sport There is. Because he had the money to put up "Schools," in area's that were hurting for Club Wrestling and he has former D1 Wrestlers coaching at those schools. Max Askren, Josh Wagner, Messenbrink, Pell... Wisconsin's big problem was never a lack of talent, it was developing it. Minnesota had a lot of clubs in or around the Twin Cities and the best athletes could compete. Then, guys went and had success, came back and coached. More clubs where the top athletes can train together, more D1 Wrestlers, more Quality coaches. But their talent was located where the highest concentration of Wrestlers were(makes sense). That wasn't really the case for Wisconsin. Nicolet or West Bend West or a lot of these HS producing elite Wrestlers, they had no programs and it was a looong ride to a decent club. I think if Ben left AWA, it would continue to churn out elite Wrestlers. You'll also notice his clubs are in areas where there is a lot of money. It's not cheap, but...you're getting Max Askren or Nick Becker will come out and do some clubs. Again, the others I mentioned. Wisconsin was more spread out. AWA has certainly filled that need with the different locations. It also helps having College Coaches willing to do some of the camps. So instead of there being clubs near Kaukauna and then Rapids and then up by the Crass Brothers(which all still exist) there are 6 more across the Southern part of the State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 17 hours ago, Formally140 said: The way you defend some of the toxic aspects of the sport does surprise Kids Wrestling has gotten genuinely disturbing. These parents sit around the mats and scream like they're at dog fights. And you cannot get to the Mat without fighting your way through like it's a rave. I took my Nephew to a kids tournament, 800 kids in a gym that shouldn't have had more than 400. Took 10 hours to Wrestle 3 matches. You put the kids level of experience on there. He'd only wrestled maybe 5-6 tournaments. He'd been going to a club for parts of two years. I put him as a 2 out of 3. 1=Beginner, 2=some experience, 3=High level. That was new to me. He won the tournament, but he didn't look like a young Kolat or anything. Got taken down each time, reversals, regular kids Wrestling. He was confronted by this fat bald guy as we were waiting to leave(getting his bracket and medal). The guy was yelling at HIM for the group they put him in with. To be honest, I wasn't even sure if he beat his kid when they were Wrestling because I wasn't really keeping score. Well, he won. I guess 11-8 or something. Who gives a shit really? I've never seen a former Wrestler out there getting super worked up about a kids tournament, ESPECIALLY at that age. That's some toxic shit no matter what your definition of toxic is. You constantly see kids crying as the parents are in the corners screaming. The Mom's are just as bad as the Dad's. It's insane. I don't recall my Dad EVER saying anything to me before a match other than "be ready," and "make sure your shoes are tied." It kinda became a joke as he continued through College. But I don't think I could have taken it...having one of those Dad's who lived through you. From what I can tell, things have gotten exponentially worse in the past 10-15 years since I was in Youth tournaments. He got nervous and he got into the matches, but he never tried coaching me unless I asked and he was just...quiet in the tournament. I assume this is what people are talking about when they talk about toxic. Just how out of control some parents get, the screaming, the yelling, yelling at kids. The kids throwing fits when they lost and nothing. Parents need to just...be better. You wonder why you have fewer officials or why you see parents fighting with kids. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightweight Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 1 hour ago, scourge165 said: Kids Wrestling has gotten genuinely disturbing. These parents sit around the mats and scream like they're at dog fights. And you cannot get to the Mat without fighting your way through like it's a rave. I took my Nephew to a kids tournament, 800 kids in a gym that shouldn't have had more than 400. Took 10 hours to Wrestle 3 matches. You put the kids level of experience on there. He'd only wrestled maybe 5-6 tournaments. He'd been going to a club for parts of two years. I put him as a 2 out of 3. 1=Beginner, 2=some experience, 3=High level. That was new to me. He won the tournament, but he didn't look like a young Kolat or anything. Got taken down each time, reversals, regular kids Wrestling. He was confronted by this fat bald guy as we were waiting to leave(getting his bracket and medal). The guy was yelling at HIM for the group they put him in with. To be honest, I wasn't even sure if he beat his kid when they were Wrestling because I wasn't really keeping score. Well, he won. I guess 11-8 or something. Who gives a shit really? I've never seen a former Wrestler out there getting super worked up about a kids tournament, ESPECIALLY at that age. That's some toxic shit no matter what your definition of toxic is. You constantly see kids crying as the parents are in the corners screaming. The Mom's are just as bad as the Dad's. It's insane. I don't recall my Dad EVER saying anything to me before a match other than "be ready," and "make sure your shoes are tied." It kinda became a joke as he continued through College. But I don't think I could have taken it...having one of those Dad's who lived through you. From what I can tell, things have gotten exponentially worse in the past 10-15 years since I was in Youth tournaments. He got nervous and he got into the matches, but he never tried coaching me unless I asked and he was just...quiet in the tournament. I assume this is what people are talking about when they talk about toxic. Just how out of control some parents get, the screaming, the yelling, yelling at kids. The kids throwing fits when they lost and nothing. Parents need to just...be better. You wonder why you have fewer officials or why you see parents fighting with kids. As a former official who started doing elementary school tournaments (that's how it works here) I say "amen" to this post. Some of the parents were just nuts. Was very happy when I "graduated" to doing junior high/middle school events. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 2 hours ago, scourge165 said: Yeah, but this is not real consistent on his behalf. I whole heartedly agree with this ideology. I think you should play multiple sports...at least as a kid. I played on a travel baseball team that played 70 games a season and was lucky to have a coach who'd let me miss some games for Fargo or Northern Plains and I could still get to some off-season practices around Baseball. And then Wrestling was fresh. It wasn't just going from the season into Freestyle and Greco and just continually grinding. And I'd also fit a tournament or two in-between Baseball and Football. Wasn't until I got older I realized how expensive this was and how lucky I was...and also probably not absolutely necessary, but the point is, I enjoyed all of them and it kept me pretty busy. Hell, I even went out for Tennis as a Jr and Sr(initially just to serve a sports suspension, but then I actually liked it). I started Wrestling at 4-5 years old, but never had that Dad who put pressure on me. Tournaments were kinda just, "hey, you wanna Wrestle this weekend?" This is an area in which I respect Askren's outward ideology, but...again, it doesn't really fit with his coaching style for his top kids. When he gets an real stud, he'll push that kid to focus on Wrestling and push them away from other sports. Telling the more serious kids what to do if they want to get to the next level in no way changes my point about him not doing the the bad stuff that is making youth wrestling detrimental to the growth of the sport. And the way you’re looking at it is.. not complete. Him coaching the best kids that way doesn’t change the fact he’s not running off kids early and he’s not doing wannabe tuff guy elementary coach crap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 8 hours ago, Formally140 said: Telling the more serious kids what to do if they want to get to the next level in no way changes my point about him not doing the the bad stuff that is making youth wrestling detrimental to the growth of the sport. And the way you’re looking at it is.. not complete. Him coaching the best kids that way doesn’t change the fact he’s not running off kids early and he’s not doing wannabe tuff guy elementary coach crap. Right...and I'm in no way changing my statement that he's wildly inconsistent on this part. I'm pretty sure the way I'm looking at it is complete, but I'd need something more than a 'nuh-uh,' to be persuaded as I'm not even sure what point you're making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Brixton Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 11 hours ago, Formally140 said: Telling the more serious kids what to do if they want to get to the next level in no way changes my point about him not doing the the bad stuff that is making youth wrestling detrimental to the growth of the sport. And the way you’re looking at it is.. not complete. Him coaching the best kids that way doesn’t change the fact he’s not running off kids early and he’s not doing wannabe tuff guy elementary coach crap. This is the correct take. Strange that there is any pushback on this. If one wants to reliably cultivate a love for wrestling (or anything else for that matter), pre-pubescent children should not be subjected to the same type of training expected of elite cadets, juniors and beyond. Develop basic skills, develop a love for the sport, improve general strength, conditioning and coordination. Puberty is the great equalizer and if the child has the desire and innate ability to become competitive at the highest levels, skipping out on Tulsa Nationals in first grade isn't hindering this long-term objective. Askren is on the mark with his philosophy. It should be intuitive to any adult male regardless of whether you wrestled. Testosterone changes priorities. There will be exceptions but they are few and far between. Some of them reach the pinnacle of the sport. But fathers or coaches deluding themselves into thinking that their child is the exception to justify living vicariously through them is exactly what Askren is trying to nip in the bud. Good for him and good for Wisconsin wrestling. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 5 hours ago, scourge165 said: Right...and I'm in no way changing my statement that he's wildly inconsistent on this part. I'm pretty sure the way I'm looking at it is complete, but I'd need something more than a 'nuh-uh,' to be persuaded as I'm not even sure what point you're making. There’s no inconsistency about not overdoing the little kiddy wrestling.. and not putting up with wannabe tuff guy parents.. which is exactly what he does… and then letting the more serious kids dial in when they’re in high school… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 3 hours ago, Theo Brixton said: This is the correct take. Strange that there is any pushback on this. If one wants to reliably cultivate a love for wrestling (or anything else for that matter), pre-pubescent children should not be subjected to the same type of training expected of elite cadets, juniors and beyond. Develop basic skills, develop a love for the sport, improve general strength, conditioning and coordination. Puberty is the great equalizer and if the child has the desire and innate ability to become competitive at the highest levels, skipping out on Tulsa Nationals in first grade isn't hindering this long-term objective. Askren is on the mark with his philosophy. It should be intuitive to any adult male regardless of whether you wrestled. Testosterone changes priorities. There will be exceptions but they are few and far between. Some of them reach the pinnacle of the sport. But fathers or coaches deluding themselves into thinking that their child is the exception to justify living vicariously through them is exactly what Askren is trying to nip in the bud. Good for him and good for Wisconsin wrestling. Yup, or their “buddies” did it so the want to defend it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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