Eliminate redshirting

[TexRef]

The D3 kids don't redshirt, for the most part. Not sure what part of the country @Dark Energyis in, but I bet there are some D3 programs close to you. They would probably appreciate the support.   

[TexRef]

What about the "grey shirt"? Should they eliminate that too? 

[Dark Energy]

56 minutes ago, TexRef said:

What about the "grey shirt"? Should they eliminate that too? 

Harder to do.  Gap years are a thing. If a kid / family wants to delay the start of their career, making money, etc … so that the dad can feel better about the kid’s college wrestling accolades, not much to be done.  
 

But the school and staff should not sanction it and even promote it.  
 

It’s all about twisting sport into something more important than it should be for a school.

[Wrestleknownothing]

46 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Harder to do.  Gap years are a thing. If a kid / family wants to delay the start of their career, making money, etc … so that the dad can feel better about the kid’s college wrestling accolades, not much to be done.  
 

But the school and staff should not sanction it and even promote it.  
 

It’s all about twisting sport into something more important than it should be for a school.

You are decades late if you are worried about schools twisting sport into something more important than it should be for a school.

[MNRodent]

1 hour ago, Dark Energy said:

 

It’s all about twisting sport into something more important than it should be for a school.

If sports weren't important to a school, then football coaches wouldn't be making 4 million a year while the professors make 90K.

I don't think wrestlers redshirting is the problem.

 

[Dark Energy]

Just because there is something that is worse doesn’t mean we should try to stop bad things that aren’t as bad.  And just because something bad has happened for a long time, doesn’t make it good or that it is not worth trying to stop.

Redshirts are a perversion.  An excuse for a coach or school to try to have more champions / better team / whatever.   If a kid isn’t ready to wrestle as a freshman, ok — try to start Sophomore year.  Big freaking deal.  Oh no, a maniacal sports fan is going to be upset.  A fan that wants the kid to bend their life trajectory to the fan’s preferences.  
 

More money to fewer kids since the 9.9 needs to span 5 or 6 years instead of 4 per kid.  

It’s a bunch of adult’s shortening a kid’s career time span for the sake of the adults enjoying watching sports — and making money off the kids.
 

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

51 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Just because there is something that is worse doesn’t mean we should try to stop bad things that aren’t as bad.  And just because something bad has happened for a long time, doesn’t make it good or that it is not worth trying to stop.

Redshirts are a perversion.  An excuse for a coach or school to try to have more champions / better team / whatever.   If a kid isn’t ready to wrestle as a freshman, ok — try to start Sophomore year.  Big freaking deal.  Oh no, a maniacal sports fan is going to be upset.  A fan that wants the kid to bend their life trajectory to the fan’s preferences.  
 

More money to fewer kids since the 9.9 needs to span 5 or 6 years instead of 4 per kid.  

It’s a bunch of adult’s shortening a kid’s career time span for the sake of the adults enjoying watching sports — and making money off the kids.
 

 

My point was that you are talking about the symptom, not the disease.

[ionel]

Can someone explain a good reason for redshirts?

[boconnell]

2 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Harder to do.  Gap years are a thing. If a kid / family wants to delay the start of their career, making money, etc … so that the dad can feel better about the kid’s college wrestling accolades, not much to be done.  
 

But the school and staff should not sanction it and even promote it.  
 

It’s all about twisting sport into something more important than it should be for a school.

Are RS years making it harder for kids to graduate?  Are grad rates going down in kids who RS?  Are non-athletes graduating faster than 5 years on average?

I am all for completely eliminating all exceptions for anything over 5 years.  But I don't understand how a 5th year somehow shows that sports are more important than what a school should be focused on.

[ionel]

9 minutes ago, boconnell said:

Are RS years making it harder for kids to graduate?  Are grad rates going down in kids who RS?  Are non-athletes graduating faster than 5 years on average?

I am all for completely eliminating all exceptions for anything over 5 years.  But I don't understand how a 5th year somehow shows that sports are more important than what a school should be focused on.

without a doubt it doesn't take 5 years for an undergraduate degree.

[RYou]

.....one benefit that has been omitted.....it enables a good student to graduate in 3 (with AP entry credit) or 4 years and start a graduate degree while remaining on scholarship.  There was a kid at Penn State a few years back that was able to graduate in 3, do his graduate degree year 4 and started medical school in his 5th year. He even got a 6th medical waiver year. A rarity for sure, but it worked to his benefit.  His was footballer, so he was on full scholarship for all 6 years.

Flip side, the Ivies limit eligibility to 4 years, no redshirts, no medical waiver years, though some of the schools promote a training year off before enrolling for your first year.  The Ivies do allow an intern year out of school.  UPenn used to push that one.  Academics and sport for 2-3 years, then they would line you up for a year away interning, often at a Wall St brokerage where you would get paid a tidy sum before reenrolling to finish your eligibility.  The NCAA accepts it since they are still competing in 4 of the allowable 5 years.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

The original post sure smells like a "Dog in the Manger" scenario to me (https://read.gov/aesop/081.html).

This article pretty much spells out all there is to know about redshirting: 

https://www.americanwomenswrestling.com/news/why-redshirt

There nothing devious, bad or subversive about the process.

Assertions of coach and college administration having perverse motives comes across as projection and paranoia.  The OP would have you believe it simply couldn't be that the process might actually be in the student athletes' best interests.

Any coach can redshirt whomever by not starting them.  And some student athletes graduate in 4 years or less, and continue their academic and athletic pursuits as grad transfers.

Eliminating redshirts would be a totalitarian's solution in search of a problem.

Edited November 7, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches
Typo

[Dark Energy]

Thanks for posting the article.  I was hopeful that is said something more than it makes it easier to win more (development), better for team winning more (team opportunity), and medical.  It did, a bit.

Still - I saw nothing that changes my mind that competing for four years I. College is not enough.  Again, if Tuba player isn’t first seat, does she redshirt?  If a bio major doesn’t get the research project she likes, does she redshirt?  If the actor doesn’t get the lead in the play, does he redshirt?  If the Chem E major doesn’t get the outcome she wants in a lab does she redshirt?  Why is athletics so much more important that the system is contorting itself?  
 

If it was four years — and move on, would still be awesome.  More kids getting more scholarships.  More kids getting to top of podium and realizing the pinnacle of success in NCAA wrestling.  More kids launching into successful careers earlier.  
 

Yes, paying for a kid to go to school for 5 or 6 years is better and easier for the one kid in that one window.  And if it pays for a graduate degree, cool.  But I expect that is the exception.  And even still, it means another kid is not getting money for their undergrad degree.  And this should be about undergrad kids.  

[98lberEating2Lunches]

36 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Thanks for posting the article.

No problem.

36 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

I saw nothing that changes my mind

Somehow I'm not surprised.

 

36 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

it makes it easier to win more (development), better for team winning more (team opportunity)

Your interpretation.  I believe "leveling up" means much more like creating a more level playing field for those with ability but no access to quality training including nutrition.

Anyways, I hope the crowdsourcing effort helps with your upcoming debate composition or competition. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[1032004]

20 hours ago, ionel said:

Freshmen just weren't ready or have the skills/technique to compete, mostly defensive skills.  Well with more & more college wrestling talent coaching all the way down at the kids club level, thats just not the case anymore.  You could argue academics were perhaps at one point an issue, again not the case anymore, lots of opportunity to be prepared, take AP courses, tutoring etc. look also at number of football players opting out of last semester Sr HS year to join the college team early.  

I think this is the first I’ve heard of someone arguing the current generation of kids being more prepared academically than in the past.  What about all that time they spend on their phones!!   I would say for academic reasons, or more specifically, adjusting to college while at the same time the rigor or D1 athletics, is the main reason for redshirting IMO.

I would agree that athletically, more guys are ready to compete right away.  And more have been! But that isn’t the case for everyone 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

38 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Again, if Tuba player isn’t first seat, does she redshirt?  If a bio major doesn’t get the research project she likes, does she redshirt?  If the actor doesn’t get the lead in the play, does he redshirt?  If the Chem E major doesn’t get the outcome she wants in a lab does she redshirt?  Why is athletics so much more important that the system is contorting itself?  
 

If it was four years — and move on, would still be awesome.

All "The Dog in the Manger" rhetorical arguments.

40 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

More kids getting more scholarships.

Nope.  Same number of scholarships.  Just some different percentage of student athletes.  And by the way, many schools don't give out the existing full complement of allowed NCAA athletic scholarships.

[1032004]

47 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Again, if Tuba player isn’t first seat, does she redshirt?  If a bio major doesn’t get the research project she likes, does she redshirt?  If the actor doesn’t get the lead in the play, does he redshirt?  If the Chem E major doesn’t get the outcome she wants in a lab does she redshirt?  Why is athletics so much more important that the system is contorting itself?  

Is there anything stopping a college student from participating in band, plays, etc for 5, 6, 7 years as long as they fulfill their requirements? I would argue athletics are MORE restrictive than other in-school activities, not less.  (I don’t think comparing to academic classes is fair though, as athletes are students too.  But yes, regular students can delay taking certain classes if they want, or even *gasp* take 5 years to graduate)

[98lberEating2Lunches]

Many HBCUs offer band scholarships.  Has to do with the importance the school places on it.  Variety is the spice of life.

Almost all schools offer some kind academic scholarship or financial aid.

The individual terms of marching band or academic scholarships likely include consideration of hardship events.  It's unwise to argue from an easily disproved faulty premise.

The NCAA only governs athletics purportedly in the mutual best interest of its member schools and their students athletes.  Bringing in "tuba players" (and Chem E majors) is a non sequitur.

All in all, the "eliminate redshirts" argument has not been persuasive.  I am considering giving a C- borderline D+, just to move the kid forward toward graduation.

Edited November 7, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[RYou]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

I would say for academic reasons, or more specifically, adjusting to college while at the same time the rigor or D1 athletics, is the main reason for redshirting IMO. 

I agree with the academic preparation aspect.  While many kids are smart enough to graduate in 4 years, many are not.  All sports, except maybe swimming golf and tennis recruit kids that aren't rocket scientists and barely qualify to attend the easiest of admission schools.  The first year red shirt enables the school to provide academic tutoring to get those kids accommodated to campus academics and have a chance of actually graduating.  I suspect many schools know a kid specific kid is only looking to get to a point talent wide to be drafted and there is no intent to finish with a sheepskin, and the school steers academics to meet the minimum eligibility standards.I'm sure this scenario occurs far less in collegiate wrestling as opposed to football, basketball and hockey.

[Wrestleknownothing]

7 minutes ago, RYou said:

I agree with the academic preparation aspect.  While many kids are smart enough to graduate in 4 years, many are not.  All sports, except maybe swimming golf and tennis recruit kids that aren't rocket scientists and barely qualify to attend the easiest of admission schools.  The first year red shirt enables the school to provide academic tutoring to get those kids accommodated to campus academics and have a chance of actually graduating.  I suspect many schools know a kid specific kid is only looking to get to a point talent wide to be drafted and there is no intent to finish with a sheepskin, and the school steers academics to meet the minimum eligibility standards.I'm sure this scenario occurs far less in collegiate wrestling as opposed to football, basketball and hockey.

You hear that? Us swimmers are a bunch of rocket scientists.

[ionel]

9 minutes ago, RYou said:

I agree with the academic preparation aspect.  While many kids are smart enough to graduate in 4 years, many are not.  All sports, except maybe swimming golf and tennis recruit kids that aren't rocket scientists and barely qualify to attend the easiest of admission schools.  The first year red shirt enables the school to provide academic tutoring to get those kids accommodated to campus academics and have a chance of actually graduating.  I suspect many schools know a kid specific kid is only looking to get to a point talent wide to be drafted and there is no intent to finish with a sheepskin, and the school steers academics to meet the minimum eligibility standards.I'm sure this scenario occurs far less in collegiate wrestling as opposed to football, basketball and hockey.

so maybe they shouldn't be going to a 4 year program?

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

You hear that? Us swimmers are a bunch of rocket scientists.

Elon would like a word. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

Elon would like a word. 

That's me in the red shirt.

[boconnell]

10 hours ago, ionel said:

without a doubt it doesn't take 5 years for an undergraduate degree.

Lots of statistics show that the majority of students currently take more than 4 years to graduate college with a bachelors.

[Wrestej]

I would like it if redshirts were only available to incoming freshmen.  Allow them a year to get acclimated to the rigors of going to university and competing.  Medical should stay the same as now as well as a grey for true Olympic hopefuls.  Anything else in my eyes is BS.