fishbane Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 The Carr-O'Toole match from tonight got me thinking about how often two individuals with NCAA titles meet. It is somewhat unusual and even more unusual for it feature wrestlers as exceptional as these two. Through nearly 7 seasons of competition they had lost a combined 3 matches going into the bout. It's pretty crazy. Below I submit below a partial list of meetings between NCAA champions 1972-present, but that is only really mostly complete 2000-present. The year noted is the year of the NCAA tournament for the season the match was wrestled. Ex. Starocci and Lewis wrestled in the All Star match in Nov 2022. This match took place in the 2022-2023 season and is noted as 2023 in the list below. 1972 Dziedzic-Adams All Star 1977 Jackson-Belenburg NCAAs 1980 Lewis-Burley Dual 1980 Lewis-Burley All Star 1980 Lewis-Burley NCAAs 1981 Lewis-Burley Dual 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz Midlands 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz Dual 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz NCAAs 1992 Prescott-Terry Brands Dual 1995 Branch-Mollica Dual 1995 Branch-Mollica All Star 1995 Branch-Mollica NCAAs 1996 Branch-Mollica Las Vegas 1996 Branch-Mollica Dual 1997 Bono-McIlravy Dual? 1997 Bono-McIlravy Midlands 1997 Bono-McIlravy NCAAs 1999 Fullhart-Hartung Dual 1999 Fullhart-Hartung Big Tens 1999 Fullhart-Hartung NCAAs 2004 Mocco-Rowlands NCAAs 2004 Lee-Thompson Dual 2004 Lee-Thompson NCAAs 2006 Letters- Hendricks Dual 2009 Herbert-Pucillo Dual 2009 Herbert-Pucillo NCAAs 2010 Escobedo-Nickerson NCAAs 2011 Howe-Burroughs Midlands 2013 Ruth-Bosak Scuffle 2013 Ruth-Bosak NCAAs 2013 Dake-Taylor All Star Dake 100-4, Taylor 70-1, Combined 170-5 2013 Dake-Taylor Scuffle 2013 Dake-Taylor NCAAs 2013 Wright-Kilgore NCAAs 2014 Stieber-Maple All Star 2014 Perry-Howe Dual 2014 Perry-Howe Big Tens 2014 Perry Howe NCAAs 2016 Snyder-Gwiazdowski NCAAs Snyder 40-4, Gwiazdowski 139-11 2017 Martin-Dean All Star 2017 Martin-Dean Dual 2018 Nickal-Martin Dual Nickal 79-3, Martin 87-15, Combined 166-18 2018 Nickal-Martin Big Tens Nickal 84-3, Martin 92-16, Combined 176-19 2018 Nickal-Martin NCAAs Nickal 89-3, Martin 96-17, Combined 185-20 2018 Joseph-IMar Big Tens Joseph 42-5, Imar 111-2, Combined 153-7 2018 Joseph-IMar NCAAs Joseph 46-6. Imar 116-2, Combined 162-8 2019 Hall-Valencia Dual Hall 70-4, Valencia 79-1, Combined 149-5 2019 Hall-Valencia NCAAs Hall 93-4, Valencia 100-3, Combined 193-7 2022 Starocci-Lewis NCAAs Sartocci 36-2 Lewis 72-5, Combined 108-7 2023 Starocci-Lewis All Star Starocci 38-2, Lewis 75-6, Combined 113-8 2023 Carr-O'Toole Dual Carr 84-2, O'Toole 56-1, Combined 140-3 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 Great stuff, @fishbane Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocraTease Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 If you open it up to freestyle, your list is going to be very, very long. Lots of instances of 2, 3 and even 4 timers-in the making going at each other. Since Carr just wrestled, I went back and watched Nolf eviscerate him twice in freestyle (tech to pin, and 10-0 tech). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11986 Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 Possible addition to the list - pretty sure Dan Gable and Mike Grant wrestled when they were both already champs, Gable's senior year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 34 minutes ago, 11986 said: Possible addition to the list - pretty sure Dan Gable and Mike Grant wrestled when they were both already champs, Gable's senior year. These ones are hard to spot. No good source for regular season data that far back and they wrestled different weights at NCAAs. My list only have a few of these cross weight matchups. Back before the weight cutting rules changed in the late 1990s they were probably much more prevalent. Moving weights mid season was much more prevalent and some guys would wrestle the whole season at a higher weight because they don't want to cut and then drop right before the post season. Here are the cross weight matchups from the list 1992 Prescott-Terry Brands Dual 2014 Stieber-Maple All Star 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 1 hour ago, SocraTease said: If you open it up to freestyle, your list is going to be very, very long. Lots of instances of 2, 3 and even 4 timers-in the making going at each other. Since Carr just wrestled, I went back and watched Nolf eviscerate him twice in freestyle (tech to pin, and 10-0 tech). Also if I included post grad matchups at Midlands there would be many more. Those seem more relevant than freestyle Midlands use collegiate rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 (edited) 1970 Gable-Grant Dual - addition 1972 Dziedzic-Adams All Star 1972 Dziedzic-Adams NCAAs - addition 1977 Jackson-Belenburg NCAAs 1980 Lewis-Burley Dual 1980 Lewis-Burley All Star 1980 Lewis-Burley NCAAs 1981 Lewis-Burley Dual 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz Midlands 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz Dual 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz NCAAs 1992 Prescott-Terry Brands Dual 1995 Branch-Mollica Dual 1995 Branch-Mollica All Star 1995 Branch-Mollica NCAAs 1996 Branch-Mollica Las Vegas 1996 Branch-Mollica Dual 1997 Bono-McIlravy Dual? 1997 Bono-McIlravy Midlands 1997 Bono-McIlravy NCAAs 1999 Fullhart-Hartung Dual 1999 Fullhart-Hartung Big Tens 1999 Fullhart-Hartung NCAAs 2004 Mocco-Rowlands NCAAs - Didn't Happen Mocco redshirted 2004 Lee-Thompson Dual 2004 Lee-Thompson NCAAs 2006 Letters- Hendricks Dual 2009 Herbert-Pucillo Dual 2009 Herbert-Pucillo NCAAs 2009 Leen-Gillespie NCAAs - addition 2010 Escobedo-Nickerson NCAAs 2011 Howe-Burroughs Midlands 2013 Ruth-Bosak Scuffle 2013 Ruth-Bosak NCAAs 2013 Dake-Taylor All Star Dake 100-4, Taylor 70-1, Combined 170-5 2013 Dake-Taylor Scuffle 2013 Dake-Taylor NCAAs 2013 Wright-Kilgore NCAAs 2014 Stieber-Maple All Star 2014 Perry-Howe Dual 2014 Perry-Howe Big Tens 12s 2014 Perry Howe NCAAs 2016 Snyder-Gwiazdowski NCAAs Snyder 40-4, Gwiazdowski 139-11 2017 Martin-Dean All Star 2017 Martin-Dean Dual 2018 Nickal-Martin Dual Nickal 79-3, Martin 87-15, Combined 166-18 2018 Nickal-Martin Big Tens Nickal 84-3, Martin 92-16, Combined 176-19 2018 Nickal-Martin NCAAs Nickal 89-3, Martin 96-17, Combined 185-20 2018 Joseph-IMar Big Tens Joseph 42-5, Imar 111-2, Combined 153-7 2018 Joseph-IMar NCAAs Joseph 46-6. Imar 116-2, Combined 162-8 2019 Hall-Valencia Dual Hall 70-4, Valencia 79-1, Combined 149-5 2019 Hall-Valencia NCAAs Hall 93-4, Valencia 100-3, Combined 193-7 2022 Starocci-Lewis NCAAs Sartocci 36-2 Lewis 72-5, Combined 108-7 2023 Starocci-Lewis All Star Starocci 38-2, Lewis 75-6, Combined 113-8 2023 Carr-O'Toole Dual Carr 84-2, O'Toole 56-1, Combined 140-3 Edited February 16, 2023 by fishbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, 11986 said: Possible addition to the list - pretty sure Dan Gable and Mike Grant wrestled when they were both already champs, Gable's senior year. They met in the 2nd ISU-OU dual of the year 3/7/1970. It was a 9-4 Gable win. It's interesting. Dake's 4 championships in 4 weights is a very unique accomplishment. Gable nearly did something similar 1968 - NCAA Champ 130lbs 1969 - NCAA Champ 137lbs Weights changed 123, 130, 137, 145 changed to 126, 134, 142, and 150 1970 - NCAA runner up at 142 3/28. Defeated NCAA champ at 150, Grant, 9-4 on 3/7. Edited February 16, 2023 by fishbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 1 hour ago, fishbane said: They met in the 2nd ISU-OU dual of the year 3/7/1970. It was a 9-4 Gable win. It's interesting. Dake's 4 championships in 4 weights is a very unique accomplishment. Gable nearly did something similar 1968 - NCAA Champ 130lbs 1969 - NCAA Champ 137lbs Weights changed 123, 130, 137, 145 changed to 126, 134, 142, and 150 1970 - NCAA runner up at 142 3/28. Defeated NCAA champ at 150, Grant, 9-4 on 3/7. 2 is nearly 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 1 minute ago, ionel said: 2 is nearly 4? Maybe not that close. It was impossible for him to win 4 to begin with. He nearly won 3 at 3 and beat the champ in a 4th weight a few weeks before the tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkemaz Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 21 minutes ago, fishbane said: Maybe not that close. It was impossible for him to win 4 to begin with. He nearly won 3 at 3 and beat the champ in a 4th weight a few weeks before the tournament. This is great stuff. How long did it take you to make the initial list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11986 Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 2 hours ago, fishbane said: Moving weights mid season was much more prevalent and some guys would wrestle the whole season at a higher weight because they don't want to cut and then drop right before the post season. Little trivia - Larry Owings only loss that year was to Grant and to your pout I think Owings wrestled anywhere from 150-167 during reg season and then dropped to 142 to go after Gable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, 11986 said: Little trivia - Larry Owings only loss that year was to Grant and to your pout I think Owings wrestled anywhere from 150-167 during reg season and then dropped to 142 to go after Gable. Grant saved his best performance for the NCAA tournament that season. He lost to Gable in a dual 3/7. Then he lost to Gable's teammate Carl Adams in the Big 12 final on 3/14. Grant rebounded to win NCAAs beating Ben Ferraro in the final on 3/28. Ferraro avenged this loss a few weeks later in the NWCA All Star Classic on 4/11. Edited February 16, 2023 by fishbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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