Nord Stream 2 pipe line.

[Le duke]

OMG I know all about government regulations,  holy cow.  I totally live my life around them. Although I'm not aware of the regulation around starting a  toxic chemical fire. Maybe you could educate me on that?

You understand that the suspected cause of the derailment is a failed bearing, which likely wouldn’t have happened if the Obama-era regulations governing improved brakes hadn’t been stripped by the Trump administration, right?

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-blame-ohio-train-derailment-1781163?amp=1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Plasmodium]

19 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

The clean up should have been to remove all contaminated soil.

There was a high likelihood of explosion, which could have happened under less favorable weather conditions.  They didn't have good options.

[El Luchador]

25 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

You understand that the suspected cause of the derailment is a failed bearing, which likely wouldn’t have happened if the Obama-era regulations governing improved brakes hadn’t been stripped by the Trump administration, right?

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-blame-ohio-train-derailment-1781163?amp=1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

It's seriously unlikely that a brake inspection would have shown a failing bearing.  

[El Luchador]

38 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

You understand that the suspected cause of the derailment is a failed bearing, which likely wouldn’t have happened if the Obama-era regulations governing improved brakes hadn’t been stripped by the Trump administration, right?

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-blame-ohio-train-derailment-1781163?amp=1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Did you read the article you posted? 

[Nailbender]

There hasn't even been an investigation but this train derailment and the aftermath are already Trump's fault. 

The mental gymnastics on this board are why this country will fail.

[Nailbender]

2 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

Did you read the article you posted? 

No, he did not. He did see it had Trump in it though.

Trump baaaadddddd.

(Grunts and other assorted noises)

Edited February 16, 2023 by Nailbender

[Le duke]

It's seriously unlikely that a brake inspection would have shown a failing bearing.  

A brake inspection?

No. It was a rule/regulation that required trains that carried certain classes of toxic substances to have upgraded brakes.

The Trump administration rescinded that rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Le duke]

Did you read the article you posted? 

You clearly didn’t.

“A rule was passed under President Barack Obama that made it a requirement for trains carrying hazardous flammable materials to have ECP brakes, but this was rescinded in 2017 by the Trump administration.

The industry said it would cost more than $3 billion to implement. The FRA under Obama said it would be around half a billion.

The National Transportation Safety Board, a federal agency responsible for investigating rail accidents, told The Lever that the Ohio train that derailed was not fitted with ECP brakes.

Would ECP brakes have reduced the severity of this accident? Yes," Ditmeyer said.

Referring to opposition from within the rail industry to fitting ECP brakes, he added: "The railroads will test new features. But once they are told they have to do it ... they don't want to spend the money."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nailbender]

5 minutes ago, Le duke said:

You clearly didn’t.

“A rule was passed under President Barack Obama that made it a requirement for trains carrying hazardous flammable materials to have ECP brakes, but this was rescinded in 2017 by the Trump administration.

The industry said it would cost more than $3 billion to implement. The FRA under Obama said it would be around half a billion.

The National Transportation Safety Board, a federal agency responsible for investigating rail accidents, told The Lever that the Ohio train that derailed was not fitted with ECP brakes.

Would ECP brakes have reduced the severity of this accident? Yes," Ditmeyer said.

Referring to opposition from within the rail industry to fitting ECP brakes, he added: "The railroads will test new features. But once they are told they have to do it ... they don't want to spend the money."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why did you purposely leave out part of it?

"Nor have rail regulators in Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg's department proposed reinstating the safety rule in question, The Lever reported. A spokesperson for the FRA told the outlet that it was continuing to evaluate ECP brakes to improve safety."

[El Luchador]

3 minutes ago, Le duke said:

A brake inspection?

No. It was a rule/regulation that required trains that carried certain classes of toxic substances to have upgraded brakes.

The Trump administration rescinded that rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It was regulation requiring a type of brake, but it had a wheel bearing failure. The train acts as a unit.  Having electronics on the brakes wouldn't have any effect on a wheel  bearing.  It's actually an incredibly stupid assertion. 

[Le duke]

It was regulation requiring a type of brake, but it had a wheel bearing failure. The train acts as a unit.  Having electronics on the brakes wouldn't have any effect on a wheel  bearing.  It's actually an incredibly stupid assertion. 

Brakes generate heat which cause bearings to fail.

Surely you know this, as a man with many certifications.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[El Luchador]

4 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Brakes generate heat which cause bearings to fail.

Surely you know this, as a man with many certifications.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Heat from the brakes will not get into the bearing. The braking system wouldn't reduce braking heat. It would take a mechanical failure to get enough excess heat to damage a wheel bearing.  Having electrical control wouldn't stop a mechanical failure.  And guess what smart ass, I do have certification in this area and I have direct air brake experience. I also know about the shitty electric controls for air brake systems. The only way to get enough heat is if the brake is dragging when in the released position. The electronics couldn't release a dragging brake. Most wheel bearings fail because wheel seal failures.

[Plasmodium]

Google tells me ECB systems stop a train faster which results in fewer cars derailing.

[El Luchador]

5 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Google tells me ECB systems stop a train faster which results in fewer cars derailing.

You still haven't answered for a wheel bearing failure.  I don't know if I'd agree that you stop faster either. 

[Plasmodium]

20 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

You still haven't answered for a wheel bearing failure.  I don't know if I'd agree that you stop faster either. 

That is not my discussion.   I interpreted the article differently.

Train brakes aren't my area, I was interested in what the significance of an ecp system is.  What is the purpose of these systems?

[El Luchador]

The only issue with braking would be if was traveling to fast and couldn't slow down in time. My guess is these train do very little braking. They know how fast they need to be going for the constitution ahead and decelerate by reducing power well ahead. 

[mspart]

Funny, now the honchos are saying it is safe to go back.   How do you clean that stuff up?   Why are the animals and fish dying?   Why are people feeling crappy?  To say the least there is some hesitancy in going back home for a lot of these folks. 

mspart

[uncle bernard]

20 hours ago, Nailbender said:

Why did you purposely leave out part of it?

"Nor have rail regulators in Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg's department proposed reinstating the safety rule in question, The Lever reported. A spokesperson for the FRA told the outlet that it was continuing to evaluate ECP brakes to improve safety."

Absolutely correct, but you should also note that this is a critique from the left. The Lever, which has done great reporting on this, is run by David Sirota, one of Bernie Sanders' former top aides.

It's also my understanding that the brake requirement wouldn't have actually applied to this specific train because lobbyists successfully got the Obama admin to lower the requirements. Trump removed the already watered down regulation completely and Mayor Pete failed to reinstate it in any form.

This is the result of decades long corporate and industrial capture of our government. Both parties are entirely beholden to right wing corporate ideology. The republicans are certainly more extreme in their belief of it, but the Dems subscribe to the same logic with small restrictions to keep it running off the rails, so to speak.

[Mike Parrish]

'Regulatory capture" is also an everpresent problem in rail.

[mspart]

I really hate to ask these questions, but how would ECP brakes have helped in this derailment over the brakes that were fitted on the train?   What are ECP brakes and how are they different from other brakes?

It takes the same energy to stop a train no matter what.   Braking energy is converted to heat energy by friction.  That is the nature of brakes.   That heat energy will warm up the wheels but most is dissipated at the rim, not at the center where the bearing is. 

What was the nature of the wheel bearing failure?  Probably too early for that assessment.   Fatigue?  Tensile loading?  Heat/cold shock?  No grease?   I can see the no grease being a potential reason.   Missed its maintenance window.   Doesn't happen often in a highly regulated industry like trains but it does happen from time to time I'm sure.

NTSB will put out their report and that should tell us all we need to know.   Unfortunately, that usually takes a year or more. 

mspart

[mspart]

NTSB says:  https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20230214.aspx

NTSB investigators have identified and examined the rail car that initiated the derailment. Surveillance video from a residence showed what appears to be a wheel bearing in the final stage of overheat failure moments before the derailment. The wheelset from the suspected railcar has been collected as evidence for metallurgical examination. The suspected overheated wheel bearing has been collected and will be examined by engineers from the NTSB Materials Laboratory in Washington, D.C.

So it appears the bearing overheated.  I guess we'll find out more when they examine it.

mspart

 

[mspart]

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/3857172-five-lingering-questions-over-ohio-train-derailment-toxic-spill/

Did lax regulations help cause the crash?

Railroad safety experts and union members have reiterated calls for more stringent federal oversight of the rail industry following the derailment.

One area of constant tension has been brakes. Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) received reports that crews of the Norfolk Southern train pulled the emergency brake, and a mechanical issue with one of the railcar axles was discovered, CNN reported.

The possibility of a brake failure points to a behind-the-scenes battle in American railroad regulation — and a place where critics say that both parties have resisted reforms that would make Americans safer.

Most trains run on a system where wheels stop one at a time using a compression system, left-leaning news outlet The Lever reported. By contrast, electronically controlled pneumatic brake technology halts all the cars simultaneously — dramatically reducing stopping time.

While Norfolk Southern initially touted these advances, it was also part of a coalition of rail companies that successfully fought the regulations, winning a reprieve from the Obama administration and a repeal under the Trump administration, according to The Lever.

The outlet reported that the Norfolk Southern train wasn’t regulated as a “high-hazard flammable train” even though its crash triggered a fireball.

“Railroads should not use their lobbyists to block or weaken commonsense safety measures that protect workers and communities,” Brown told The Lever. 

In his statement to The Hill, the Ohio senator called on the NTSB, which is investigating the derailment, to tell Congress and the Department of Transportation what can be done “to avert future derailments involving hazardous materials.” 

One such measure is before the agency now. Members of multiple railroad unions are fighting a potential rule that would allow trains using the new electronic brakes to travel 2,500 miles — up from 1,500 — without stopping to have their brakes tested. 

While these trains would have electronic logs, such a ledger “cannot justify reducing the frequency of inspections and repairs to train brakes in the field,” Rich Johnson of the Brotherhood of Railway Carmen said in a statement.

“Such changes will almost certainly reduce the overall safety of trains operating across the country,” Johnson added.

 

There is still no explanation of why ECP brakes would have prevented an axle or bearing to break.  But the Obama admin exempted this kind of thing anyway, and Trump admin got rid of it.   Either way, the ECP issue was not being enforced ever for this situation.  

mspart

[Plasmodium]

10 minutes ago, mspart said:

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/3857172-five-lingering-questions-over-ohio-train-derailment-toxic-spill/

Did lax regulations help cause the crash?

Railroad safety experts and union members have reiterated calls for more stringent federal oversight of the rail industry following the derailment.

One area of constant tension has been brakes. Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) received reports that crews of the Norfolk Southern train pulled the emergency brake, and a mechanical issue with one of the railcar axles was discovered, CNN reported.

The possibility of a brake failure points to a behind-the-scenes battle in American railroad regulation — and a place where critics say that both parties have resisted reforms that would make Americans safer.

Most trains run on a system where wheels stop one at a time using a compression system, left-leaning news outlet The Lever reported. By contrast, electronically controlled pneumatic brake technology halts all the cars simultaneously — dramatically reducing stopping time.

While Norfolk Southern initially touted these advances, it was also part of a coalition of rail companies that successfully fought the regulations, winning a reprieve from the Obama administration and a repeal under the Trump administration, according to The Lever.

The outlet reported that the Norfolk Southern train wasn’t regulated as a “high-hazard flammable train” even though its crash triggered a fireball.

“Railroads should not use their lobbyists to block or weaken commonsense safety measures that protect workers and communities,” Brown told The Lever. 

In his statement to The Hill, the Ohio senator called on the NTSB, which is investigating the derailment, to tell Congress and the Department of Transportation what can be done “to avert future derailments involving hazardous materials.” 

One such measure is before the agency now. Members of multiple railroad unions are fighting a potential rule that would allow trains using the new electronic brakes to travel 2,500 miles — up from 1,500 — without stopping to have their brakes tested. 

While these trains would have electronic logs, such a ledger “cannot justify reducing the frequency of inspections and repairs to train brakes in the field,” Rich Johnson of the Brotherhood of Railway Carmen said in a statement.

“Such changes will almost certainly reduce the overall safety of trains operating across the country,” Johnson added.

 

There is still no explanation of why ECP brakes would have prevented an axle or bearing to break.  But the Obama admin exempted this kind of thing anyway, and Trump admin got rid of it.   Either way, the ECP issue was not being enforced ever for this situation.  

mspart

Would not have prevented it.  ECP braking results in fewer cars derailing.

[El Luchador]

2 hours ago, mspart said:

I really hate to ask these questions, but how would ECP brakes have helped in this derailment over the brakes that were fitted on the train?   What are ECP brakes and how are they different from other brakes?

It takes the same energy to stop a train no matter what.   Braking energy is converted to heat energy by friction.  That is the nature of brakes.   That heat energy will warm up the wheels but most is dissipated at the rim, not at the center where the bearing is. 

What was the nature of the wheel bearing failure?  Probably too early for that assessment.   Fatigue?  Tensile loading?  Heat/cold shock?  No grease?   I can see the no grease being a potential reason.   Missed its maintenance window.   Doesn't happen often in a highly regulated industry like trains but it does happen from time to time I'm sure.

NTSB will put out their report and that should tell us all we need to know.   Unfortunately, that usually takes a year or more. 

mspart

As near as I can tell ECP brakes have both and electric and mechanical signal to the piston that engages the brakes. Typically an air brake has a lazy response. Trains being very long I would imagine have significant delays from one end to the other when you rely on an air signal only. But with the regulations only applying to Hazmat cars it almost seems irrelevant.  If any car that isn't hazmat derails it takes the rest with. The systems seem very simple and don't appear to have any independent control for individual cars yet alone axels or wheels. I haven't been able to identify any type of automatic slack adjuster to account for wear at individual wheels.