Senior Nationals is the qualifier for Final X, right?

[VakAttack]

I was thinking, since I can't make the NCAA tournament, I might try to hit Vegas for the event.  For those who have attended, do you recommend it over an actual Final X event?  I like the idea that I get U20, U17, and WFS as well.  Also, am I reading it right, it's on a Wednesday?

[LJB]

seniors is the first day of vegas... that is greco... wednesday the 26th

leg grabbers start a day later... 

the winners who are not medalists from '22 will sit in the best 2 out of 3 for final x...

 

if there was one tourney you could attend in a year domestically, the us open is probably it...

every one who is any one in america will be there...

from little dudes to the best we have to offer...

[LJB]

seriously, if you or anyone is considering going, i would suggest booking hotels now...

most years it is the same weekend as the NFL draft...

 

[VakAttack]

2 hours ago, LJB said:

seriously, if you or anyone is considering going, i would suggest booking hotels now...

most years it is the same weekend as the NFL draft...

 

Oh, so it's multi-day?  Do we know which ones are which days?  Nothing on the website shows anything other than 4/26.

[LJB]

https://usawrestlingevents.com/event/2300005602/schedule

[bnwtwg]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:13 AM, LJB said:

seriously, if you or anyone is considering going, i would suggest booking hotels now...

most years it is the same weekend as the NFL draft...

 

NFL draft is in Kansas City this year so not sure why Vegas would be packed to the gills in April?

[bnwtwg]

For the masses who are curious: to be a participant in Final X for MFS

1) Winner US Open (what I think you're referring to as "Senior Nationals") which is a one-match winner take all final. This will take place April 25-30 in Las Vegas

2.1) Any returning medalist goes directly to Final X if they stay at the same weight.

or

2.2) Win the WTT tourney which is a one-match winner take all final. May 20-21 in Colorado Springs

Weight classes that will not qualify for 2.1 and move onto 2.2 criteria are anticipated to be: 61kg, 92kg, 125kg. Gross (61) and Zillmer (125) did not medal last year, Cox has announced he is attempting to move up and miss weight at 97kg again.

Final X for all 3 Senior styles/30 weights takes place on what's going to be a very, very, very long June 10 at a site to be determined.

MFS selection criteria can be found here

Full U15 through Seniors for MFS, WFS, and Greco team selection criteria can be found here

 

 

 

[de4856]

The US Open is a great event, you’ll get to see a ton of action with a lot of our top wrestlers. 

[mspart]

For me, I wish it still was the setup to the WTTs or final x now.   That way everyone was there.  

mspart

[LJB]

it will be huge for greco...

no one sits in the finals...

[Mike Parrish]

A bunch of information here.

https://www.usawmembership.com/usaw_events/2300005602

[mspart]

3 hours ago, LJB said:

it will be huge for greco...

no one sits in the finals...

True!

mspart

[LJB]

with seniors before the age level stuff at vegas this year, it is going to make some possibly make a choice... 

3 straight days of weigh ins...

wrestle grown men first then hope you make it out injury free before U20...

top 7 qualifies for trials in may with no other opportunity to qualify... 

 

i am a little annoyed...

[bnwtwg]

2 hours ago, LJB said:

with seniors before the age level stuff at vegas this year, it is going to make some possibly make a choice... 

3 straight days of weigh ins...

wrestle grown men first then hope you make it out injury free before U20...

top 7 qualifies for trials in may with no other opportunity to qualify... 

 

i am a little annoyed...

You're either ready or you're not, and most juniors know/have been informed if they are ready to take the step up.

 

 

[LJB]

2 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

You're either ready or you're not, and most juniors know/have been informed if they are ready to take the step up.

it is definitely one way of looking at it and i can appreciate the angle...

 

there is a different reality that is a real consideration...

ready to win the spot and ready to make a national team are two different things...

my oldest was in the finals of senior greco last year at 19... demolished everyone in U20s couple of days before that... he ended up at senior trials 4th... no national team... had to wrestle out for U20 and 23 back to back to back best 2 out of 3 finals instead of just claiming the spots as was his goal... 

now...

was he ready to win seniors at 19?

not according to the way the match went against ildar...

was he ready to compete at seniors and possibly make a national team and get all the bonuses that come with that?

stipends and the invites to rankings and overseas training and all that jazz that come with officially making the senior national team?

clearly, he was 100%... he beat everyone in this country except the top 3 guys... 

this season he is only focusing on seniors because of how important the open is for greco... he wins that he is guaranteed a spot in final X and no matter what happens he is on the senior national team and does not even have to go through the U20/23 trials process... 

 

my 17 year old is on the same path... he trains every day with our 63kg senior world rep... he knows exactly where he stands against the very tip domestically...

he is not physically ready to beat the top 2 guys with any real regularity, but, he can damn sure be top 3 seniors in this country...

but he wants to cement the U20 pan am team because his brother did it last year and only came home with a bronze...

that spot is cemented by winning the open at U20...

U20 is the next day after two days of senior weigh ins and wrestling...

that risk is big enough to consider not competing at seniors even though he is already capable...

if seniors was after the age level stuff it would not even be a consideration... he would do both and not think twice about it...

 

so...

there is a little more involved than just tweeting trite things about big dawgs and staying on the porch...

 

[bnwtwg]

42 minutes ago, LJB said:

it is definitely one way of looking at it and i can appreciate the angle...

 

there is a different reality that is a real consideration...

ready to win the spot and ready to make a national team are two different things...

my oldest was in the finals of senior greco last year at 19... demolished everyone in U20s couple of days before that... he ended up at senior trials 4th... no national team... had to wrestle out for U20 and 23 back to back to back best 2 out of 3 finals instead of just claiming the spots as was his goal... 

now...

was he ready to win seniors at 19?

not according to the way the match went against ildar...

was he ready to compete at seniors and possibly make a national team and get all the bonuses that come with that?

stipends and the invites to rankings and overseas training and all that jazz that come with officially making the senior national team?

clearly, he was 100%... he beat everyone in this country except the top 3 guys... 

this season he is only focusing on seniors because of how important the open is for greco... he wins that he is guaranteed a spot in final X and no matter what happens he is on the senior national team and does not even have to go through the U20/23 trials process... 

 

my 17 year old is on the same path... he trains every day with our 63kg senior world rep... he knows exactly where he stands against the very tip domestically...

he is not physically ready to beat the top 2 guys with any real regularity, but, he can damn sure be top 3 seniors in this country...

but he wants to cement the U20 pan am team because his brother did it last year and only came home with a bronze...

that spot is cemented by winning the open at U20...

U20 is the next day after two days of senior weigh ins and wrestling...

that risk is big enough to consider not competing at seniors even though he is already capable...

if seniors was after the age level stuff it would not even be a consideration... he would do both and not think twice about it...

 

so...

there is a little more involved than just tweeting trite things about big dawgs and staying on the porch...

 

So again, if you are ready to compete against seniors whether you win the spot, make the team, or be competitive then it is time to not compete at age level. If a competitor and their camp decides that the better experience will be going after the age group spot and world tourney exposure then that is also fine. But seniors is seniors and if you want to run with the best of the best then that is a definitive declaration that you feel you are above your peers.

Put the above paragraph another way: would your 17 year old go to Fargo? Or is that, for all intents and purposes, beneath the talent level at this point?

Is a U20 Pan Ams tourney more important, at this current time, than competing for a spot on the senior national team? Does that desire align with the talent level?

[LJB]

27 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

So again, if you are ready to compete against seniors whether you win the spot, make the team, or be competitive then it is time to not compete at age level. If a competitor and their camp decides that the better experience will be going after the age group spot and world tourney exposure then that is also fine. But seniors is seniors and if you want to run with the best of the best then that is a definitive declaration that you feel you are above your peers.

Put the above paragraph another way: would your 17 year old go to Fargo? Or is that, for all intents and purposes, beneath the talent level at this point?

Is a U20 Pan Ams tourney more important, at this current time, than competing for a spot on the senior national team? Does that desire align with the talent level?

the only reason my 17 year old went to fargo last year was because he shit the bed in the semis of trials at U17 at the open...

he then teched his way through juniors...

only went to the second period once...

did not give up a single point...

i was not allowed to go to fargo because no one wanted to see the look on my face for those two days of competition...

he brought the stop sign home so i could physically hold it in my hand (i never got to do that with my oldest's big stop sign... we had issues when he was in HS) and gave it to his club coach a couple of months after that... it meant absolutely nothing the moment after he won it...

he wrestled for a medal in hungary in '21... lost in the semis on criteria 5-5... lost in his bronze medal match 4-2...

so, for all intents and purposes yes fargo is beneath him...

(and yes, being 100% honest about that makes me feel a little greasy but we approach this sport differently than most)

 

is U20 domestically beneath him right now?

that is debatable, but, what i am seeing physically from him this season tells me U20 domestically could be...

he tried for the U20 spot at 16 years old last year and lost to the eventual world team member 1-1...

regardless...

U20 internationally is considerably tougher than seniors domestically in this country in greco...

so...

the point you wanted to make really does not apply...

 

there is huge value in age level international competitions and a schedule change has the potential to force the few athletes that have the ability to contemplate going after both to make a choice...

even just a day in between would make a huge difference...

 

whatever...

i am just venting a little...

Edited February 17, 2023 by LJB

[LJB]

another example in the differences between domestic senior greco and international U20 greco...

my 19 year old only gave up 1pt at U20 open last year... a BS passivity call...

in seniors two days later, he beat the 202o senior open champ (no WCAP then)...

his only losses domestically came to ildar, and miranda... within 2 months of first competing at the senior level he went from getting teched by miranda at the farrell to 5-2 and 5-3 losses at senior world team trials...

he also lost in the finals of U23 to moomey while wrestling in the finals of U20 at the same time...

 

at worlds he ran into leivesi first match... eventual gold medalist...

got wrecked... wrestled well and the moment was not too big, but, it was a different level...

then wrestled gomi in repechage... eventual 5th place winner...

he got wrecked...

 

all of this is to say nuance "could" your friend...

 

[LJB]

@Mike Parrish

how many girls won world titles in multiple age groups last season?

at least one was on all 3 teams, yes?

 

[Mike Parrish]

2 minutes ago, LJB said:

@Mike Parrish

how many girls won world titles in multiple age groups last season?

at least one was on all 3 teams, yes?

 

Amit Elor is the only one I can think of.

 

The underlying topic that I've been thinking about for a while.

Dom's group is the last one that had to/could wrestle boys regularly in high school.
After that group, girls wrestling grew quickly and there was a nationwide push to get separate state, sectional and league level competition for girls.
This is a generally good thing.
However, there was also a push to exclude girls from boys' tournaments at the same time.

I talk to a lot of the collegiate women's coaches and they have noticed a dip in the overall quality of recruiting prospects they're getting.
There are more of them, but they're not nearly as tough or sharp or conditioned as the previous group.
I suspect this is due to the segregation of girls from boys wrestling.
They may practice together, although it's moving away from that now, but competing and winning against boys is much tougher than girls tournaments.

Almost all of the current world/national women's team members are from that previous generation, with some exceptions at the higher weights
https://www.teamusa.org/usa-wrestling/team-usa/national-team-bios

I don't see the next generation making much headway into senior world team spots against the current world/national team members, with a few exceptions(Audrey Jimenez out of Arizona is one to watch, Adaugo Nwakchukwu is another), until the current world/national team members retire.
https://www.flowrestling.org/rankings/7493986-2022-domestic-womens-freestyle-rankings/42199-50-kilograms

Hildebrandt
Parrish
Winchester
Maroulis
Nelson <-- likely when she returns to competition
Miracle
Velte
Mensah-Stock
Elor
Gray

I don't see any of them losing to the younger generations, which leaves them out of the senior medal contention.

Women's/girls' wrestling is in transition now and it shows.

[LJB]

cayden condit grew up wrestling boys... won 2 state titles in girls then her senior year wrestled only boys again to end her HS career...

Jaslynn Gallegos placed at boys one year...

some are still doing it...

 

the flip side is one kid who went to southern plains one year... his religion dictated that he not wrestle girls...

first match he forfeited to jersey estrada...

second match he forfeited to cayden campbell...

(could be messing up the order)

and i feel like the bracket was small so he had an opportunity to wrestle for 8th and it was against another girl...

he literally forfeited every match he had...

and while i respect the commitment to the principles...

damn...

 

but i do not necessarily disagree with your point...

by dumbing down the competition and trying to get everyone a trophy we lower the overall level of everyone involved...

 

back in the day at the OTC, high school boys had to beat the senior women before they were allowed to wrestle with the senior men...

i do not think that would even be allowed anymore in the namby pamby climate in this country...

 

[Mike Parrish]

4 minutes ago, LJB said:

but i do not necessarily disagree with your point...

by dumbing down the competition and trying to get everyone a trophy we lower the overall level of everyone involved...

I wasn't making that point.

Women and girls should have their own state, sectional and league competitions.
Excluding the girls from the boys' tournaments makes it harder for them to get tough competitions that their predecessors were able to take advantage of.
Until girls' wrestling expands more and is able to attract top athletes in high school away from soccer, softball, track and field, etc, it's going to be hard for elite girl wrestlers to find consistently tough competition.
It's fundamentally a numbers game.

Compare the 2015 Fargo finals to the 2022 Fargo finals.
Night and day.
It's even more pronounced when you go back to the semis and quarters.

 

Also, to be clear, at the heavier weights, it's nearly impossible for a girl to compete successfully against boys.
I's say the cutoff is around 130.
Physiological advantages just start stacking up too high for the boys.
At the lighter weights, boys tournaments were the proving grounds.

[LJB]

it is 100% the same line of thinking...

most athletes/parents want to win...

there is justification in winning...

it is way more fun than losing...

but...

the few really high level athelets that should definitely consider all their choices and what their end goal is, forcing the separation is detrimental for them...

 

now, can girls still wrestle in boys divisions in HS?

i was not aware of them not being allowed to, but, i have no real clue about it...

if they are (mostly) banned from seeking out the best competition they can then that is a travishamockery...

the option for the few super athletes should exist for them to be as good as they possibly can be...

with that being said...

the rest of everyone else greatly benefits from a lowered pool of competition and can get real value from it...

[bnwtwg]

51 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Dom's group is the last one that had to/could wrestle boys regularly in high school.

Quick sidebar... Morgan Turner is currently in the IL boys semis @ 106 and guaranteed to place. That may not mean much in about 40 other states, but that is a HUGE rare accomplishment in Illinois.

[LJB]

i remember when sage mortimer AA'd in greco at fargo...