35 countries demand ban of Russia at the 2024 Olympics

[scourge165]

9 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

I'm going to disagree here.

The Sochi Olympics showcased an incontrovertible finding that the Russian state, not individual athletes or sports, conspired to violate WADA regulations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_Report

WADA reports
https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/20160718_ip_report_newfinal.pdf
https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/mclaren_report_part_ii_2.pdf

This system was systemic in Russian athletics and had a pervasive reach into all sports.

That should be the "you don't compete for two quads" level penalty.

Ok, so they were allowed to compete the last cycle...these are findings from before most of the current athletes were competing. How many years later should they ban all the Russian athletes? 

[Mike Parrish]

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Ok, so they were allowed to compete the last cycle...these are findings from before most of the current athletes were competing. How many years later should they ban all the Russian athletes? 

Two quads. 
 

Full ban. 
We’ll see your cheating asses after 2028. 
 

Don’t do that or suffer. 

[scourge165]

32 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Two quads. 
 

Full ban. 
We’ll see your cheating asses after 2028. 
 

Don’t do that or suffer. 

You're going to have 18 year old athletes being penalized for things that were happening when they were born or had no control over.

I'm fine with them not competing under the Russian Flag, but this seems a bit harsh.

[Mike Parrish]

2 hours ago, scourge165 said:

You're going to have 18 year old athletes being penalized for things that were happening when they were born or had no control over.

I'm fine with them not competing under the Russian Flag, but this seems a bit harsh.

It's about deterrence for the state.
Let them go to other countries to compete.

[bnwtwg]

5 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Two quads. 
 

Full ban. 
We’ll see your cheating asses after 2028. 
 

Don’t do that or suffer. 

Yeah let’s not go throwing stones into glass houses. Americans cheat, they just have much better technology and advanced doping systems to not caught, or at least avoid getting caught for a longer period of time. The only difference is that because America is privatized, it cannot technically be “state-led” but I can guaran-damn-tee it’s coming down straight from the top. I know this for a very good fact. At least (or maybe the problem is??) our wrestlers haven’t popped for the really good stuff and are too busy wasting their time with adderal and weight cutters.

[scourge165]

44 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Yeah let’s not go throwing stones into glass houses. Americans cheat, they just have much better technology and advanced doping systems to not caught, or at least avoid getting caught for a longer period of time. The only difference is that because America is privatized, it cannot technically be “state-led” but I can guaran-damn-tee it’s coming down straight from the top. I know this for a very good fact. At least (or maybe the problem is??) our wrestlers haven’t popped for the really good stuff and are too busy wasting their time with adderal and weight cutters.

I again don't think the Russian athletes should be banned, especially not for two more cycles, but what evidence do you have that the...USOC or USA Wrestling or anyone "at the top" is mandating the same type of widespread doping the Russians were caught doing? Or any illegal Performance enhancing program, coordinated effort or anything other than someone here or there.

There may be some athletes who take Adderall that's grandfathered in yet, but I think the comparison in lieu of any evidence is a little wild. Russia was on a whole different level. It's like comparing a shop lifter to Bernie Madoff. 

 

[lu_alum]

source: https://www.voanews.com/a/olympics-row-deepens-as-35-countries-demand-ban-for-russia-belarus-/6958405.html
 
I disagree, Russia should be at the Olympics despite the horrible things they have done 

Russia should sit out at least one cycle for their repeated systemic PED transgressions. The most recent Winter Games showed the weakness of a ban that allows athletes the compete under an ROC pseudonym.

Hostile aggression only solidifies the reason to ban them. The sports world had no problem banning South Africa from the Olympics between 1964-1988 due to apartheid. I don’t understand why Russia gets a pass.


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[scourge165]

15 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

 

Russia should sit out at least one cycle for their repeated systemic PED transgressions. The most recent Winter Games showed the weakness of a ban that allows athletes the compete under an ROC pseudonym.

Hostile aggression only solidifies the reason to ban them. The sports world had no problem banning South Africa from the Olympics between 1964-1988 due to apartheid. I don’t understand why Russia gets a pass.


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Touché. But then China shouldn't be allowed to send people, right? And North Korea? This list could get long.

South Africa also wasn't allowing black athletes to represent the Country, correct? So that seems a little more directly correlated with the spirit of the games(or breaking it to be more accurate). 

 

There have been a lot of horrible regimes who've competed in the Olympics. I understand the other point of views and respect them, but I just think about the athletes who have absolutely nothing to do with decisions made by their leaders and I kinda take issue with the idea of these complete bans. They also diminish the games. Kyle Snyder winning Olympic Gold would mean a whole lot less(just one example and not my primary reason).

 

 

 

[Mike Parrish]

What's the point of WADA if when a country is found to has systematically cheated there's very consequences?

[scourge165]

57 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

What's the point of WADA if when a country is found to has systematically cheated there's very consequences?

It's to try and catch cheating and hand down a punishment to them, not everyone who's from the same Country. I'm obvious in the middle in terms of opinions here and Russia was unprecedented, I just can't justify banning them the next TWO Olympics based on that. 

We're going back to ~2010 for some of this stuff, so I just can't say no Russian athletes. I guess agree to disagree. 

 

Edit-Definitely good with them not competing under the Russian Flag or celebrating the Country at all, just the athletes who are clean or at least have tested clean.

Edited March 5, 2023 by scourge165

[bnwtwg]

7 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I again don't think the Russian athletes should be banned, especially not for two more cycles, but what evidence do you have that the...USOC or USA Wrestling or anyone "at the top" is mandating the same type of widespread doping the Russians were caught doing? Or any illegal Performance enhancing program, coordinated effort or anything other than someone here or there.

There may be some athletes who take Adderall that's grandfathered in yet, but I think the comparison in lieu of any evidence is a little wild. Russia was on a whole different level. It's like comparing a shop lifter to Bernie Madoff. 

 

Alberto Salazar is a great example of “from the top.”

Some individuals off the top of my head:

Marion Jones

Bowerman Burrito Track Club

US wrestlers busted:

Daton Fix

Kevin Randleman

Jordan Oliver

The Greco guys last year

Edited March 5, 2023 by bnwtwg
sp

[scourge165]

46 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Alberto Salazar is a great example of “from the top.”

Some individuals off the top of my head:

Marion Jones

Bowerman Burrito Track Club

US wrestlers busted:

Daton Fix

Kevin Randleman

Jordan Oliver

The Greco guys last year

 

8 hours ago, scourge165 said:

but what evidence do you have that the...USOC or USA Wrestling or anyone "at the top" is mandating the same type of widespread doping the Russians were caught doing? Or any illegal Performance enhancing program, coordinated effort or anything other than someone here or there.

Oliver was busted because he didn't get a TUE in time in 2017.
Fix had his reduced from 4 to 1 because it was ruled an accidental ingestion.
Marion Jones 2006
Kevin Randleman? Are you including just any and all athletes or did he test positive while training for the US Olympic team?

You're going back 20 years and you came up with...a handful of individuals, several of whom were caught by the US rather than the US trying to cover for them.

 

I think that kinda made my point more than yours...and I'm still kinda confused why you included Kevin Randleman, but in any event, this doesn't show a coordinated effort by the United States, it shows the opposite. The United States is testing these athletes and taking action. That's the exact opposite of Russia.

[bnwtwg]

Alberto Salazar, Jordan Oliver, and Daton Fix are from the most recent quad. Salazar led the middle and long distance Nike Oregon Project and I’ll let you do two seconds of googling to figure out how that was or was not top-down for the middle and long distance men’s and women’s teams.

[Mike Parrish]

There's a list of Russian athletes busted at Sochi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_Report

 

Quote

 

According to the McLaren report, the Disappearing Positive Methodology (DPM) operated from "at least late 2011 to August 2015."^[4] It was used on 643 positive samples, a number that the authors consider "only a minimum" due to limited access to Russian records.^[4]

• Athletics (139)
• Weightlifting (117)
• Non-Olympic sports (37)
• Paralympic sport (35)
• Wrestling (28)
• Canoe (27)
• Cycling (26)
• Skating (24)
• Swimming (18)
• Ice hockey (14)
• Skiing (13)
• Football (11)
• Rowing (11)
• Biathlon (10)
• Bobsleigh (8)
• Judo (8)
• Volleyball (8)
• Boxing (7)
• Handball (7)
• Taekwondo (6)
• Fencing (4)
• Triathlon (4)
• Modern pentathlon (3)
• Shooting (3)
• Beach volleyball (2)
• Curling (2)
• Basketball (1)
• Sailing (1)
• Snowboard (1)
• Table tennis (1)
• Water polo (1)

State level involvement
 

Quote

The report concluded that it was shown "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Russia's Ministry of Sport, the Centre of Sports Preparation of the National Teams of Russia, the Federal Security Service (FSB), and the WADA-accredited laboratory in Moscow had "operated for the protection of doped Russian athletes" within a "state-directed failsafe system" using "the disappearing positive [test] methodology."^[4][5][6][7] McLaren stated that urine samples were opened in Sochi in order to swap them "without any evidence to the untrained eye".^[4]

This is in no way comparable to the US.

 

This 'both sides' shit is unadulterated Russian propaganda.

[bnwtwg]

3 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

There's a list of Russian athletes busted at Sochi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_Report

 

State level involvement
 

This is in no way comparable to the US.

 

This 'both sides' shit is unadulterated Russian propaganda.

Absolutely not Russian propaganda and I’m genuinely offended you would imply that. I’m simply saying we shouldn’t be throwing stones in glass houses because time and again US athletes have been proven to be just as guilty. It’s simply a difference of state-ordained vs. privatized doping industries.

[scourge165]

22 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Alberto Salazar, Jordan Oliver, and Daton Fix are from the most recent quad. Salazar led the middle and long distance Nike Oregon Project and I’ll let you do two seconds of googling to figure out how that was or was not top-down for the middle and long distance men’s and women’s teams.

I don't need to do any googling. 

He was stripped of his position, it wasn't let by US Track and Field. That's as close to "top down" as you can get(which was initially directed toward Wrestling, but I guess you went with Fix and a tainted drink, Oliver and...an MMA guy who has nothing to do with this.

That isn't even in the same stratosphere as the Russian federation. 

 

I mean, I was with you that the Russian athletes shouldn't all be banned, but now you're trying to conflate what Russia did...which was unprecedented with what the Russian Federation did.

Who was helping these athletes from the US Olympic Committee cheat the testing? Tampering with the drug tests? Taking cheating to an unprecedented level? I think you're reaching...a LOT. 

[scourge165]

5 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Absolutely not Russian propaganda and I’m genuinely offended you would imply that. I’m simply saying we shouldn’t be throwing stones in glass houses because time and again US athletes have been proven to be just as guilty. It’s simply a difference of state-ordained vs. privatized doping industries.

N0-THEY-HAVE-NOT!

 

Never has team USA EVER been "just as guilty" as the shit Russia tried to pull. MAYBE East Germany, not the Russians. Maybe even the Soviets, but nobody has been busted on a level that even approaches the Russians. 

That's not a winning argument. "We've had people test dirty as well." And you went back to Marion Jones and again, an athlete not even participating in the sport anymore to help bolster your argument.

You get they had a complex and state or the art State run program to HIDE the test results. If you test dirty in the US...you're just out. They didn't hide that runner Richardson's results despite the fact she was the best Women's runner and it a NON-PED and a matter of weeks and she would have been able to compete. No, she was just ruled ineligible. 

There are levels. Comparing the US or any other Country to Russia is just absurd. 

[Mike Parrish]

30 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Absolutely not Russian propaganda and I’m genuinely offended you would imply that. I’m simply saying we shouldn’t be throwing stones in glass houses because time and again US athletes have been proven to be just as guilty. It’s simply a difference of state-ordained vs. privatized doping industries.

When the CIA and USADA conspire at the behest of the POTUS to corruptly 'fix' urine tests for at least ~700 American athletes, let me know.

Until then, comparing any other country to Russia is just dumb.

You can see the outline of Russian propaganda in this article.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/19/sports/olympics/vladimir-putins-swift-reaction-to-doping-report-blames-anti-russian-politics.html

 

Interestingly, the author of the report agrees with you about this being unfair to the athletes.
https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1126995/mclaren-sides-with-russia-and-belarus

I disagree with him.

 

Giving Russia two quads of no competitions would deter future chicanery.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Mike Parrish

[Mike Parrish]

I'll let the McLaren report speak for itself.

From part 1
 

Quote

Chapter 1: Executive Summary of this Report

Key Findings

1. The Moscow Laboratory operated, for the protection of doped Russian
athletes, within a State-dictated failsafe system, described in the report as
the Disappearing Positive Methodology.

2. The Sochi Laboratory operated a unique sample swapping methodology
to enable doped Russian athletes to compete at the Games.

3. The Ministry of Sport directed, controlled and oversaw the manipulation
of athlete’s analytical results or sample swapping, with the active
participation and assistance of the FSB, CSP, and both Moscow and Sochi
Laboratories

From part 2
 

Quote

Chapter 1: Executive Summary of 2nd IP Report

Key Highlights of 2nd Report

Institutionalised Doping Conspiracy and Cover Up

1. An institutional conspiracy existed across summer and winter sports athletes
who participated with Russian officials within the Ministry of Sport and its
infrastructure, such as the RUSADA, CSP and the Moscow Laboratory, along
with the FSB for the purposes of manipulating doping controls. The summer
and winter sports athletes were not acting individually but within an
organised infrastructure as reported on in the 1 st Report.

2. This systematic and centralised cover up and manipulation of the doping
control process evolved and was refined over the course of its use at London
2012 Summer Games, Universiade Games 2013, Moscow IAAF World
Championships 2013, and the Winter Games in Sochi in 2014. The evolution
of the infrastructure was also spawned in response to WADA regulatory
changes and surprise interventions.

3. The swapping of Russian athletes’ urine samples further confirmed in this 2 nd
Report as occurring at Sochi, did not stop at the close of the Winter Olympics.
The sample swapping technique used at Sochi became a regular monthly
practice of the Moscow Laboratory in dealing with elite summer and winter
athletes. Further DNA and salt testing confirms the technique, while others
relied on DPM.

4. The key findings of the 1 st Report remain unchanged. The forensic testing,
which is based on immutable facts, is conclusive. The evidence does not
depend on verbal testimony to draw a conclusion. Rather, it tests the physical
evidence and a conclusion is drawn from those results. The results of the
forensic and laboratory analysis initiated by the IP establish that the
conspiracy was perpetrated between 2011 and 2015.

The Athlete Part of Conspiracy and Cover Up

5. Over 1000 Russian athletes competing in summer, winter and Paralympic
sport, can be identified as being involved in or benefiting from manipulations
to conceal positive doping tests. Based on the information reported to
International Federations through the IP to WADA there are 600 (84%)
summer athletes and 95 (16%) winter athletes.
London Summer Olympic Games

6. Fifteen Russian athlete medal winners were identified out of the 78 on the
London Washout Lists. Ten of these athletes have now had their medals
stripped.

IAAF Moscow World Championships

 

7.Following the 2013 IAAF Moscow World Championships, 4 athletics athletes’
samples were swapped. Additional target testing is in progress.

Sochi Winter Olympic Games

8. Sample swapping is established by 2 female ice hockey players’ samples with
male DNA.

9. Tampering with original sample established by 2 [sport] athletes, winners of
four Sochi Olympic Gold medals, and a female Silver medal winner in [sport]
with physiologically impossible salt readings.

10. Twelve medal winning athletes (including the above 3) from 44 examined
samples had scratches and marks on the inside of the caps of their B sample
bottles, indicating tampering.

11. Six winners of 21 Paralympic medals are found to have had their urine
samples tampered with at Sochi.

There's no comparison between Russia and any other nation on this topic.

[Mike Parrish]

Article on Russian propaganda around this topic.

https://www.vocativ.com/342499/russian-doping-documentary-is-blatant-propaganda/index.html

 

[El Luchador]

On 3/4/2023 at 10:42 AM, scourge165 said:

Haven't heard that, but I listened to Anatoly not long ago talk about his life Wresting and it was a great video. The "Wrestling Changed my Life" podcast. 

Spent a while talking about the difference in how they train in the US vs Russia. Actually said a lot of people in Russia don't take it as seriously because they don't have the funding behind them. It was a little difficult to understand exactly when he was talking about because he mentioned how some private businessmen have come in and sponsored Wrestlers, but Putin doesn't fund the Wrestlers as much as the Olympic Sports which he qualified as Track and Field and something else. There was a little lost in translation, but it was a great interview. Didn't listen his brothers. Maybe it's in that one.

Reminded me a bit of the Brands brothers in how he talked about not being able to train with his brother beyond just drilling because it'd end up in fights. 

 

Said a few things that were counter to what American's think, but talked about the emphasis on technique over physical training vs America where it's the other way around and how it forced the Russians to change things a bit. 

 

The brother is probably overlooked a bit because of the boycotts. It's not quite the same as, but it hurt the athletes and did little to "punish" either Nation in '80 or '84. Just stole opportunities from guys like Kemp in the '80s and the Russians in '84. There are enough people caught up in Putin's actions. I don't see why the athletes...who haven't tested dirty shouldn't be allowed to compete. We actually agree. If you're going to police who can compete in the Olympics based on their Countries behavior, just crown everyone from Switzerland now. Those are your Olympic Champions. 

Can you imagine being the second best guy in the world and the second best guy in your family. 

[El Luchador]

4 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Absolutely not Russian propaganda and I’m genuinely offended you would imply that. I’m simply saying we shouldn’t be throwing stones in glass houses because time and again US athletes have been proven to be just as guilty. It’s simply a difference of state-ordained vs. privatized doping industries.

I'm not familiar with a single American Wrestler being busted.  

[Mike Parrish]

3 hours ago, El Luchador said:

I'm not familiar with a single American Wrestler being busted.  

USADA keeps a page
https://www.usada.org/news/sanctions/

Type wrestling into the search bar.

It's still a small number.

[El Luchador]

7 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

12 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

USADA keeps a page
https://www.usada.org/news/sanctions/

Type wrestling into the search bar.

It's still a small number.

 

Not a lot of performance enhancing violation. Some of those violations are pretty weak. Also looks like we need to use better judgment in who we support. I'd rather get caught with every anabolic steroid made in my blood than being exposed as a financial supporter of Walter White. 

[Mike Parrish]

38 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

Not a lot of performance enhancing violation. Some of those violations are pretty weak. Also looks like we need to use better judgment in who we support. I'd rather get caught with every anabolic steroid made in my blood than being exposed as a financial supporter of Walter White. 

Only 2 of the 4 year bans.

Only one woman wrestler.

 

Dehydroepiandrosterone, Ostarine, are androgen receptor modifiers. Poor mans anabolics.

6a-hydroxyandrostendione is an actual steroid.

Furosemide, Methylhexanamine are diuretics used for cutting.
 

I don't see much to carp about in these cases.

I do think cannaboids should come off the list.
Not my drug of choice, but it doesn't seem terribly germane to performance enhancement.