Iowa vs. Michigan thread

[fishbane]

7 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

None of those techniques involve clasping around the torso or legs without an arm encircled.

You are right with the exception of the arm encircled part.  That doesn't matter.  A trapped arm gut wrench is illegal in NCAA wrestling.  This would involve locking hands around the defensive wrestlers torso with an arm encircled.  

7 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I believe that was locked hands.  It is also possible that the refs (and coaches) missed a similar one late in Bonnacorsi/Trumble.

For whatever reason, even good wrestling minds miss locked hands on chest wrap type positions.  I am talking about chest wraps that happen in flurries when one man is already on top.  I think it is because they look like neutral positions, but the top man is still in control, so it should be called a clasp.

I believe this is what happened. The referees were looking at other things.  One was probably looking for the NF points and the other one watching the clock to let the guy looking at the NF know when time was out.  I don't think the referees could have changed this on their own or even from an Iowa challenge.  They could only award points for locked hands if they thought there may have been locked hands or Michigan challenged it.  I did not know this.  

I found this in the 2022-2023 case book

Quote

A.R. 3-7. What happens if a coach requests a video review challenge, and when the review is being executed, the referee notices the wrestler of the coach calling for the challenge should have received a locked hands call?

RULING: The locked hands call has no bearing on the review that has been requested. Referees are only allowed to evaluate the specific call indicated by the coach. The team requesting the video review cannot be called for violations that were not called by the referee during the regulation portion of the match and then discovered during a coach’s video review challenge. There are two acceptable ways the locked hands call could have been corrected: (1) If the referee believed they may have missed the locked hands call, they could execute a referee's video review prior to the original coach's video review request; or (2) The opposing coach could use a video review challenge after the original coach's video review request.

(Rule 3.13.9)

So I think the initial blame for missing the call should go to the referees, but they should not be blamed for not correcting it during the review.  They likely completely missed it and if it was an officials review were just checking for NF points or the original control/takedown.  If it was an Iowa challenge then they likely were only challenging NF points and the locked hands could not be corrected.  Blame for not fixing it falls to Michigan assuming they had an unused challenge.

[1032004]

3 hours ago, fishbane said:

I don't see uncovered area.  I also don't see the precursor to near fall that you mentioned earlier. None of your earlier examples are really applicable as they don't involving locking hands around the entire torso/both legs so there would never be a locked hands call for those.  Your later example of bear hug is applicable. If you bear hug someone from neutral where it's legal and take them straight to their back then you can keep the lock if they are in NF criteria otherwise you have reaction time to release the lock. You cannot bear hug or body lock from top and then work the guy over to NF.  That's a locked hands call every time.  From a TD or mat return it's a tricky play to keep the lock because it might help you hold them and get the fall/points, but if they squirm out you could give up a point.

One somewhat related example to this discussion is the guillotine.  This is the turning move with a leg in where the top wrestler grabs the defensive wrestlers far arm and puts it behind his back using it to turn him over.  The offensive wrestler can lock his hands around the defensive wrestlers head once NF criteria is established a move that would otherwise be an illegal headlock.  This would result in an illegal hold penalty and not a technical violation like we had been discussing, nevertheless there is no mention of near fall precursor or imminent possibility of near-fall in this rule. 

"Locked Hands — Guillotine. The offensive wrestler cannot lock hands around the head of the defensive wrestler when using the guillotine until the offensive wrestler meets a near-fall criterion."

In practice there might be some margin. Where say you lock your hands before NF criteria in a way that is only legal in NF criteria (ex. bear hug or around the head w/guillotine) and turn the guy real fast.  The referee might not notice or call it.  Then again they might notice, stop action, and award a point.

The neutral danger rule 4.2.3 doesn't add anything in the way of modifying locking hands from my reading.

The most common example I can think of is if someone is in on a double (could also get to that position from a mat return) and then locks around the body to take them to their back.  I’ve never seen that called locked hands even if locked prior to meeting nearfall criteria (and after the TD was awarded  if from neutral)

[fishbane]

2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

The most common example I can think of is if someone is in on a double (could also get to that position from a mat return) and then locks around the body to take them to their back.  I’ve never seen that called locked hands even if locked prior to meeting nearfall criteria (and after the TD was awarded  if from neutral)

I don't know that I have ever seen it.  I seem to remember personally being called for locked hands in a similar situation when the person managed to avoid NF points/get off their back.  It might happen if it is a fast transition, but that's more of the it's legal if the ref doesn't see it than being outright legal.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 hours ago, D3UC157 said:

Bear hug/body lock

Ummm... neutral?

If you try that on top, its a point and a restart.  Please- buy a rulebook.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, fishbane said:

You are right with the exception of the arm encircled part.  That doesn't matter.  A trapped arm gut wrench is illegal in NCAA wrestling.  This would involve locking hands around the defensive wrestlers torso with an arm encircled.  

 

True.  I was referring to Merkles (which is a side headlock).

[D3UC157]

8 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Ummm... neutral?

If you try that on top, its a point and a restart.  Please- buy a rulebook.

But I don’t want to have to read and interpret. No fun.

 

This scenario started neutral so body lock was in play.

 

But again, I don’t want to read… bottom foolishly reaches back, turns shoulders. Can I not drive through and body lock direct to back?

[Dark Energy]

Wow.  All sorts of writing.  Wrestler in control cannot ‘lock hands’ around torso unless nearfall is happening.  Not imminent, not almost.  Done.