State of the Union.

[mspart]

From Biden's speech:

Instead of making the wealthy pay their fair share, some Republicans want Medicare and Social Security to sunset every five years.

That means if Congress doesn’t vote to keep them, those programs will go away.

Other Republicans say if we don’t cut Social Security and Medicare, they’ll let America default on its debt for the first time in our history.

Those who think this was a trap, please provide the Rs that have proposed any of this, other than Rick Scott, and he was roundly criticized by the R caucus.   You won't because Biden lied.

mspart

[Plasmodium]

28 minutes ago, mspart said:

From Biden's speech:

Instead of making the wealthy pay their fair share, some Republicans want Medicare and Social Security to sunset every five years.

That means if Congress doesn’t vote to keep them, those programs will go away.

Other Republicans say if we don’t cut Social Security and Medicare, they’ll let America default on its debt for the first time in our history.

Those who think this was a trap, please provide the Rs that have proposed any of this, other than Rick Scott, and he was roundly criticized by the R caucus.   You won't because Biden lied.

mspart

I'll provide a video of Mike Lee for completeness.  I am not arguing this is GOP policy.

https://m.facebook.com/briantylercohen/videos/here-is-republican-senator-mike-lee-caught-on-camera-saying-he-is-trying-to-end-/737845891251117/

 

[Plasmodium]

Just now, Plasmodium said:

I'll provide a video of Senator Mike Lee R/UT for completeness.  I am not arguing this is GOP policy.

https://m.facebook.com/briantylercohen/videos/here-is-republican-senator-mike-lee-caught-on-camera-saying-he-is-trying-to-end-/737845891251117/

 

 

[mspart]

https://www.abc4.com/news/politics/sen-mike-lee-claims-2010-comments-about-social-security-medicare-medicaid-taken-out-of-context/

by: Derick Fox

Posted: Feb 9, 2023

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (ABC4) – Utah Sen. Mike Lee has responded to criticism he recently received on social media after users resurfaced comments he made in 2010 about wanting to “pull up” and “get rid of” Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

So you are using a 12 year old video and say it applies to Lee today?     Here's more from that link.

In a statement posted by Lee on Twitter, the senator said the point he was trying to make was that the federal government should not be trusted with “sweeping power over people’s livelihoods,” claiming Congress has long used Social Security as a “slush fund.” Lee also said his point was that Congress had a responsibility to honor the commitments made to Americans who paid into Social Security. .

“In repeatedly quoting my 2010 remarks today, President Biden conveniently left out that critical detail – that even when I voiced that position, I insisted that we honor the reliance interests of those who have paid into the system,” said Lee. “He also ignored in my 12 years in the Senate, I have never proposed abolishing Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid benefits. Instead, I have offered solutions to improve those programs and move them toward solvency.”

In his reaction immediately following the State of the Union address, Lee said Biden mischaracterized Republicans. During a conversation with Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, Lee said Biden looked Republicans in the eye and mischaracterized what they believe and what they want.

Lee said Biden falsely indicated Republicans in Congress are taking an approach to cut the benefits he said. According to Lee, no Republican in either the House or Congress has suggested changing Social Security as a condition for raising the debt ceiling.

The Utah senator accused President Biden of using the 2010 quotes as a diversion from the national debt, which he says jeopardizes the government’s ability to fund programs such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

Nice try.   Please play again.  So here is a nice thought experiment for you.    Where is the lock box that contains all of the SS money?

mspart

[jross]

Biden turned a non-issue into a political spectacle with Republicans and Democrats clapping together.  Biden and Ds can pat their back.  That was the trap.

It reflected badly (cheap) for Biden for anyone that saw it for what it is.

[jross]

Biden's a flip flopping opportunist that I have better empathy for when imagining he has dementia.  Sure he has slowed down mentally but his sharpness in that spectacle tells me he is less puppet than I'd imagined.  I disagree with his policy on foreign affairs, illegal immigration, energy, budget, election integrity, loan forgiveness, foreign aid, drug policy, and law and order.  He deflects.  The buck does not stop with him.  He takes credit for outcomes he had no part of.  

[Plasmodium]

1 minute ago, mspart said:

https://www.abc4.com/news/politics/sen-mike-lee-claims-2010-comments-about-social-security-medicare-medicaid-taken-out-of-context/

by: Derick Fox

Posted: Feb 9, 2023

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (ABC4) – Utah Sen. Mike Lee has responded to criticism he recently received on social media after users resurfaced comments he made in 2010 about wanting to “pull up” and “get rid of” Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

So you are using a 12 year old video and say it applies to Lee today?     Here's more from that link.

In a statement posted by Lee on Twitter, the senator said the point he was trying to make was that the federal government should not be trusted with “sweeping power over people’s livelihoods,” claiming Congress has long used Social Security as a “slush fund.” Lee also said his point was that Congress had a responsibility to honor the commitments made to Americans who paid into Social Security. .

“In repeatedly quoting my 2010 remarks today, President Biden conveniently left out that critical detail – that even when I voiced that position, I insisted that we honor the reliance interests of those who have paid into the system,” said Lee. “He also ignored in my 12 years in the Senate, I have never proposed abolishing Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid benefits. Instead, I have offered solutions to improve those programs and move them toward solvency.”

In his reaction immediately following the State of the Union address, Lee said Biden mischaracterized Republicans. During a conversation with Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, Lee said Biden looked Republicans in the eye and mischaracterized what they believe and what they want.

Lee said Biden falsely indicated Republicans in Congress are taking an approach to cut the benefits he said. According to Lee, no Republican in either the House or Congress has suggested changing Social Security as a condition for raising the debt ceiling.

The Utah senator accused President Biden of using the 2010 quotes as a diversion from the national debt, which he says jeopardizes the government’s ability to fund programs such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

Nice try.   Please play again.  So here is a nice thought experiment for you.    Where is the lock box that contains all of the SS money?

mspart

Of course this guy won't be accountable by you for something he said 12 years ago. However, you're more than happy to misquote and ridicule Biden for it from 30 years ago!! 

Dude.   Ya gotta come clean on this one. Listen to his last sentence.  He says he may as well not be running if he can't say that. 

That lock box is long gone and the only thing in it was dust and empty promises.

[Plasmodium]

2 minutes ago, jross said:

Biden's a flip flopping opportunist that I have better empathy for when imagining he has dementia.  Sure he has slowed down mentally but his sharpness in that spectacle tells me he is less puppet than I'd imagined.  I disagree with his policy on foreign affairs, illegal immigration, energy, budget, election integrity, loan forgiveness, foreign aid, drug policy, and law and order.  He deflects.  The buck does not stop with him.  He takes credit for outcomes he had no part of.  

I can't think of anybody that actually likes Biden.  Anyone?  Not me.

I don't necessarily disagree with his policies but it is stunning that our choice for POTUS came down to those two.  I suppose it is indicative of money and influence in society.  We should have a 40 - 50 something person who actually cares about the people who DIDN'T vote for him/her as president.

[mspart]

8 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Of course this guy won't be accountable by you for something he said 12 years ago. However, you're more than happy to misquote and ridicule Biden for it from 30 years ago!! 

Dude.   Ya gotta come clean on this one. Listen to his last sentence.  He says he may as well not be running if he can't say that.

You want me to hold Lee to account?   Then you must hold Biden to account when he said in 1995 that SS and Medicare have to be pared down and claim that is still his postion.   https://theintercept.com/2020/01/13/biden-cuts-social-security/

Dude - Fair is fair. 

10 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

That lock box is long gone and the only thing in it was dust and empty promises.

Yes, sadly.   This is the truth.   There is no SS bank account or lock box.  The money that SS recipients get comes from the general budget of the USA.   So all of the money that was supposed to be separated into a SS "lockbox" has been squandered.    They might as well not have a FICA (or whatever it is today) tax.   It all goes into the general budget and gets spent.   What isn't given to SS recipients gets spent on studying if transgender top or bottom surgery on kids is detrimental to them or not.  Or some other silliness.   It is a corrupt system.  I don't know of a study done that would show what SS would be if they hadn't raided the "lockbox".  I'm sure it would be in quite a bit better shape than it is right now.   The lock box is full of IOUs.   With deficit spending now the rule rather than the exception, that gives me great hope for the longevity of the program.  The fact that child bearing has greatly decreased also gives me great hope for the longevity of the program.  You must be able to see that doing nothing is really not an option.   Something will have to be done at some point to keep SS going.   And that will be curtailing payments and/or raising the age when you can start to collect.  One or the other will have to come into play.  If you disagree, please provide a logical analysis of why you disagree. 

mspart

[Plasmodium]

10 minutes ago, mspart said:

You want me to hold Lee to account?   Then you must hold Biden to account when he said in 1995 that SS and Medicare have to be pared down and claim that is still his postion.   https://theintercept.com/2020/01/13/biden-cuts-social-security/

Dude - Fair is fair. 

Yes, sadly.   This is the truth.   There is no SS bank account or lock box.  The money that SS recipients get comes from the general budget of the USA.   So all of the money that was supposed to be separated into a SS "lockbox" has been squandered.    They might as well not have a FICA (or whatever it is today) tax.   It all goes into the general budget and gets spent.   What isn't given to SS recipients gets spent on studying if transgender top or bottom surgery on kids is detrimental to them or not.  Or some other silliness.   It is a corrupt system.  I don't know of a study done that would show what SS would be if they hadn't raided the "lockbox".  I'm sure it would be in quite a bit better shape than it is right now.   The lock box is full of IOUs.   With deficit spending now the rule rather than the exception, that gives me great hope for the longevity of the program.  The fact that child bearing has greatly decreased also gives me great hope for the longevity of the program.  You must be able to see that doing nothing is really not an option.   Something will have to be done at some point to keep SS going.   And that will be curtailing payments and/or raising the age when you can start to collect.  One or the other will have to come into play.  If you disagree, please provide a logical analysis of why you disagree. 

mspart

Paywall.  My man- had you associated with an accurate Biden quote, it would have been crickets from me.  You piled onto a video with a caption that claimed he said "cut' but he actually said "freeze".  Now you are coming up with a new one.  Why?  That is not what I disputed at all.

It is humorous that Mike Lee said that with such conviction, then squeezes his face in real time(knowing full well his own words) and shovels all that word vomit onto Biden.  He (and everyone else) can literally say anything to get elected and then deny deny, deny. Ignore, ignore, ignore.  With no accountability.   Maybe that is a bigger issue than someone else's penis or vagina?

[mspart]

In the parlance of DC, a freeze is the same as a cut.   When Ds want to complain that Rs are cutting the budget, when in reality they want to cut the size of the growth.   Freezing is even worse.    I don't pay for that site and it is open to me.   So I think you can see it just fine if you try.

It is humorous that Biden that with such conviction, then squeezes his face in real time(knowing full well his own words) and shovels all that word vomit onto Mike Lee. 

mspart

[Plasmodium]

22 minutes ago, mspart said:

In the parlance of DC, a freeze is the same as a cut.   When Ds want to complain that Rs are cutting the budget, when in reality they want to cut the size of the growth.   Freezing is even worse.    I don't pay for that site and it is open to me.   So I think you can see it just fine if you try.

It is humorous that Biden that with such conviction, then squeezes his face in real time(knowing full well his own words) and shovels all that word vomit onto Mike Lee. 

mspart

He was polite enough not mention names.  I've already agreed - it was humorous.  I can't figure out why you are upset.  Biden didn't even try to stay in character.  He was laughing through the whole skit.

[Mike Parrish]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:53 AM, mspart said:

Show documentation that the current Rs in Congress are saying this. 

mspart

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/02/09/fact-sheet-congressional-republicans-many-proposals-to-cut-social-security-and-medicare-and-increase-prescription-drug-prices-and-health-care-premiums/

[Mike Parrish]

On 2/10/2023 at 3:03 PM, jross said:

Biden's a flip flopping opportunist that I have better empathy for when imagining he has dementia.  Sure he has slowed down mentally but his sharpness in that spectacle tells me he is less puppet than I'd imagined.  I disagree with his policy on foreign affairs, illegal immigration, energy, budget, election integrity, loan forgiveness, foreign aid, drug policy, and law and order.  He deflects.  The buck does not stop with him.  He takes credit for outcomes he had no part of.  

s/Biden/Trump/g

[mspart]

1 hour ago, Mike Parrish said:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/02/09/fact-sheet-congressional-republicans-many-proposals-to-cut-social-security-and-medicare-and-increase-prescription-drug-prices-and-health-care-premiums/

Nice try Mike.   Quote:

For years, Republican Members of Congress have repeatedly tried to cut Medicare and Social Security, move toward privatizing one or both programs, and raise the Social Security retirement age and Medicare eligibility age.

I didn't ask about the past, I asked about now.   What R is proposing cutting SS or medicare other than Rick Scott, who does not make up the whole R party and got roundly criticized for his proposal by the Rs?  Please find and provide that. 

I could easily also say, "for years Biden wanted to cut SS."   But that was many years ago and he no longer is trying to do that.   That is just as disingenous as what the White House is lying about.   

mspart

[Mike Parrish]

1 hour ago, mspart said:

Nice try Mike.   Quote:

For years, Republican Members of Congress have repeatedly tried to cut Medicare and Social Security, move toward privatizing one or both programs, and raise the Social Security retirement age and Medicare eligibility age.

I didn't ask about the past, I asked about now.   What R is proposing cutting SS or medicare other than Rick Scott, who does not make up the whole R party and got roundly criticized for his proposal by the Rs?  Please find and provide that. 

I could easily also say, "for years Biden wanted to cut SS."   But that was many years ago and he no longer is trying to do that.   That is just as disingenous as what the White House is lying about.   

mspart

I didn't try to cite a nonpartisan post for this volley.

Nobody is going to say, "BOO!" about SS/Medicare these days.
The trap was set and triggered and it's, once again, the third rail of politics.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Mike Parrish

[BerniePragle]

On 2/10/2023 at 1:18 PM, El Luchador said:

We all know this a false narrative,  but I still support it.  Putting DC in charge of my money is probably the most foolish decision one could make. They have bankrupted this country and I'm supposed to rely on them?

While I can't disagree with the logic, I have to say a couple of things.

The Feds have already taken a LOT of my money for 42 years, so I think I have a right to get a small part of it back.  I'll agree, I've yet to see anything the government does that I'd call efficient.  However, I can't see having 15% of the money I've made (7.5% from me, 7.5% from whomever I was working for) taken for SS and Medicare, and expecting nothing in return.

Expecting everybody to save for their later years seems to be realistic.  However there are a couple of problems with that.  Because of the value that corporate America places on their lower level workers, they have almost no possibility of saving much of anything.  A little story... When our kids were small, for a while my wife and I lived in a small town outside State College, Pa.  There was an elderly couple that we got to know because we used to walk by their house with our kids.  They had kind of a small house but it was nice and said they had 2 grown children.  He had been a salesman at Sears and she hadn't worked.  Imagine today trying to raise 2 kids, own a house, and save for retirement on a salesman at Sears salary.  Oh, I forgot Sears doesn't exist anymore.  It's been raped and plundered by a couple of CEOs and a few Holding Companies.  

Another story about expecting people to plan for much of anything...
When my wife and I lived outside Pittsburgh, I used to drive a stretch of 4 lane road with traffic lights.  You were rewarded for going the speed limit, 40mph, by catching pretty much all green lights and penalized for speeding by having to stop for red lights.  Unfortunately, that concept was lost on what seemed like 90% of the drivers on the road.  Their goal seemed to be getting to the next (red) light as soon as possible and getting stopped.  
I used to think to myself... Isaac Newton went out one night, looked up at the stars and moon, repeated it the next night, and the next...and from that deduced the movements of the heavens and earth.  And, after driving this stretch of road twice a day for ten years these people still haven't figured out the simple pattern of these lights.  And apparently, Newton and these people were the same species.   (Not exactly true about Newton, he knew more than that, but it made my point.) When thinking about privatizing/eliminating Social Security, you have to remember many people can't plan 20 seconds ahead, let alone plan for their retirement.  

"I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back."
Lev Tolstoy

Edited February 15, 2023 by BerniePragle

[El Luchador]

1 hour ago, BerniePragle said:

While I can't disagree with the logic, I have to say a couple of things.

The Feds have already taken a LOT of my money for 42 years, so I think I have a right to get a small part of it back.  I'll agree, I've yet to see anything the government does that I'd call efficient.  However, I can't see having 15% of the money I've made (7.5% from me, 7.5% from whomever I was working for) taken for SS and Medicare, and expecting nothing in return.

Expecting everybody to save for their later years seems to be realistic.  However there are a couple of problems with that.  Because of the value that corporate America places on their lower level workers, they have almost no possibility of saving much of anything.  A little story... When our kids were small, for a while my wife and I lived in a small town outside State College, Pa.  There was an elderly couple that we got to know because we used to walk by their house with our kids.  They had kind of a small house but it was nice and said they had 2 grown children.  He had been a salesman at Sears and she hadn't worked.  Imagine today trying to raise 2 kids, own a house, and save for retirement on a salesman at Sears salary.  Oh, I forgot Sears doesn't exist anymore.  It's been raped and plundered by a couple of CEOs and a few Holding Companies.  

Another story about expecting people to plan for much of anything...
When my wife and I lived outside Pittsburgh, I used to drive a stretch of 4 lane road with traffic lights.  You were rewarded for going the speed limit, 40mph, by catching pretty much all green lights and penalized for speeding by having to stop for red lights.  Unfortunately, that concept was lost on what seemed like 90% of the drivers on the road.  Their goal seemed to be getting to the next (red) light as soon as possible and getting stopped.  
I used to think to myself... Isaac Newton went out one night, looked up at the stars and moon, repeated it the next night, and the next...and from that deduced the movements of the heavens and earth.  And, after driving this stretch of road twice a day for ten years these people still haven't figured out the simple pattern of these lights.  And apparently, Newton and these people were the same species.   (Not exactly true about Newton, he knew more than that, but it made my point.) When thinking about privatizing/eliminating Social Security, you have to remember many people can't plan 20 seconds ahead, let alone plan for their retirement.  

"I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back."
Lev Tolstoy

Getting rid of SSI doesn't have to mean doing nothing,  the same 15% can be invested without the government having control over it but still requiring it be set aside. The worker doesn't get it and neither does the government.  It would be put into safe, insured investments, or private insurance.

[Nailbender]

11 hours ago, BerniePragle said:

While I can't disagree with the logic, I have to say a couple of things.

The Feds have already taken a LOT of my money for 42 years, so I think I have a right to get a small part of it back.  I'll agree, I've yet to see anything the government does that I'd call efficient.  However, I can't see having 15% of the money I've made (7.5% from me, 7.5% from whomever I was working for) taken for SS and Medicare, and expecting nothing in return.

Expecting everybody to save for their later years seems to be realistic.  However there are a couple of problems with that.  Because of the value that corporate America places on their lower level workers, they have almost no possibility of saving much of anything.  A little story... When our kids were small, for a while my wife and I lived in a small town outside State College, Pa.  There was an elderly couple that we got to know because we used to walk by their house with our kids.  They had kind of a small house but it was nice and said they had 2 grown children.  He had been a salesman at Sears and she hadn't worked.  Imagine today trying to raise 2 kids, own a house, and save for retirement on a salesman at Sears salary.  Oh, I forgot Sears doesn't exist anymore.  It's been raped and plundered by a couple of CEOs and a few Holding Companies.  

Another story about expecting people to plan for much of anything...
When my wife and I lived outside Pittsburgh, I used to drive a stretch of 4 lane road with traffic lights.  You were rewarded for going the speed limit, 40mph, by catching pretty much all green lights and penalized for speeding by having to stop for red lights.  Unfortunately, that concept was lost on what seemed like 90% of the drivers on the road.  Their goal seemed to be getting to the next (red) light as soon as possible and getting stopped.  
I used to think to myself... Isaac Newton went out one night, looked up at the stars and moon, repeated it the next night, and the next...and from that deduced the movements of the heavens and earth.  And, after driving this stretch of road twice a day for ten years these people still haven't figured out the simple pattern of these lights.  And apparently, Newton and these people were the same species.   (Not exactly true about Newton, he knew more than that, but it made my point.) When thinking about privatizing/eliminating Social Security, you have to remember many people can't plan 20 seconds ahead, let alone plan for their retirement.  

"I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back."
Lev Tolstoy

 

  At least the quote was good.

Here's a few more for your collection.

-At least when a mosquito sucks the blood out of you, he doesn't pretend to be doing it "for your own good."

   Marty Rubin

-Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.

      Reagan

-It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.

     Thomas Sowell

 

 

 

[Plasmodium]

You are too fancy for me.  I grew up with:

"Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining"

- The old man

[LJB]

1 hour ago, Nailbender said:

 -It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.

     Thomas Sowell

quoted because if it makes someone read it again then my work here is done...

[Nailbender]

1 hour ago, LJB said:

quoted because if it makes someone read it again then my work here is done...

If you like that one, you'll love this one.

-Most of the major ills of the world have been caused by well-meaning people who ignored the principle of individual freedom, except as applied to themselves, and who were obsessed with fanatical zeal to improve the lot of mankind-in-the-mass through some pet formula of their own. The harm done by ordinary criminals, murderers, gangsters, and thieves is negligible in comparison with the agony inflicted upon human beings by the professional do-gooders, who attempt to set themselves up as gods on earth and who would ruthlessly force their views on all others with the abiding assurance that the end justifies the means.

Thomas Sowell

[LJB]

12 minutes ago, Nailbender said:

If you like that one, you'll love this one.

-Most of the major ills of the world have been caused by well-meaning people who ignored the principle of individual freedom, except as applied to themselves, and who were obsessed with fanatical zeal to improve the lot of mankind-in-the-mass through some pet formula of their own. The harm done by ordinary criminals, murderers, gangsters, and thieves is negligible in comparison with the agony inflicted upon human beings by the professional do-gooders, who attempt to set themselves up as gods on earth and who would ruthlessly force their views on all others with the abiding assurance that the end justifies the means.

Thomas Sowell

i do not make it a point to follow sowell, but, every time i read something of his... watch a video... even hear his damn name...

i feel like i am doing myself an extreme disservice by not paying more attention to him...

[mspart]

17 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

I didn't try to cite a nonpartisan post for this volley.

Nobody is going to say, "BOO!" about SS/Medicare these days.
The trap was set and triggered and it's, once again, the third rail of politics.

 

I said nothing about a nonpartisan response.   I notice you are again dodging my response to yours.   The whitehouse.gov site listed a bunch of lies that do not pertain to the here and now.   That is what I addressed and you cited this as refutation.   So like I said, Nice try.  Not fooling anyone. 

mspart

[mspart]

52 minutes ago, LJB said:

i do not make it a point to follow sowell, but, every time i read something of his... watch a video... even hear his damn name...

i feel like i am doing myself an extreme disservice by not paying more attention to him...

Perhaps you should act on that feeling.

mspart